Another Hemi on the DynoJet.
Dec 30, 2003 | 08:32 AM
#52
Nice Marketing propaganda ... Dont forget these guys are tring to sell you their product.
Lets look at their own math and numbers they present. They tell you OEM can be 14% parasitic. So if this holds true a 345 HP motor would have a stock converter soak ~48 BHP (14% of 345.) Then the say a 6% increase in efficiency is gained which means you net ~20 BHP(6% of 345). Lets remember that BHP is not Wheel HP and is a high assumption which still illustrates my point. By their own calculations they are saying you are still only netting a 20 BHP increase which may only realistically net you a 16 Wheel HP increase. This is far from 30 HP like you said or even better yet the "guaranteed" 25-30 Wheel horse power they claim.
But lets take into consideration the fact that all this you have quoted is "Marketing Jargon" and that the first statement they make is "general" and not specific to the HEMI.
Continuing on they say the HEMI has a 18% parasitic OEM converter and theirs is only 8%. On a HEMI, you then would be saying the OEM converter is soaking 63 BHP (18% of 345). Their converter is soaking only 3 BHP (8% of 345). This means their design "frees up" an additional 60 BHP which in Wheel HP term should net 48 HP increase but then they only claim that you will see 25-30 Wheel HP ... How come the nearly 50% discrepancy in teir approximation? remeber they are trying to sell you something...
Please remeber now .. im over the name calling and tryin to help illustrate a point ...
Now have you ever seem before and after dynos of a converter install? Look carefully and interpret the data based upon the means of gathering ... meaning consider whether an acellerometer dyno (dynojet type) or loaded eddy-current type (mustang, superflow) is used to gather data. This will provide you tremendous insite to number accuracy ... one component a accellerometer dyno cannot take into play is load (or at least cannot factor completely.) Load on a hydraulic interface (such as a torque conveter) will change thes INFLATED numbers that you are reporting. But even if you dont factor this in lets look at the graphs themselves. If you look carefully and test in the same conditions locked and un locked (TCC) you wil notice one thing - RWHP is identical @ peak when the converter is locked. When it is unlocked you may see efficency changes throughout the powerband however once above true stall teh curves will nearly be the same. Many such "marketed" performance gains tell you the change in HP @ low rpm which @ 2500 rpm or converter in netting 30 hp over stock .. ok well how long will you actually see 2500 @ wot when driving or better yet when racing? probably only a few brief seconds. Taking into effect shift points and relative shift extention gained with converters you probably would never see below 3500 @ wot
. When you look at the gains near this area i guarantee you are not seeing 30 Hp gains. It just doesnt happen.
Ad really thanks for the company data .. i really use information such as how long a business has been open and how much square footage they have to determine the reliability of a companies dat
.. lol sorry im being sarcaric again. BUt honestly look at this info and take it for what it means to you ... Im happy to engage in a technically inclined rational conversation but lets not quote marketing Jargon ... its not that real.
So take in to consideration useable numbers and power ... is it capable of freeing up some HP down low .. ok sure .. how usable is that power, well it depends on your application and use (but for racing.. its not all that usable when the converter is in an unlocked condition) Its why they are called Torque converters and not HP generators. They benefit in available torque but its purpose is not to gain 25-30 RWHP .... Sorry but your 345 BHP truck which i have seen several lay down between 240-270 RWHP will not all the sudden be making the advertised 25-30 HP gains.
Buy one test it I'm sure my data is not wrong .. I have tested both a PI (Vig3500 custom) which i still own and a Yank (TT3000) which i sold.
Lets look at their own math and numbers they present. They tell you OEM can be 14% parasitic. So if this holds true a 345 HP motor would have a stock converter soak ~48 BHP (14% of 345.) Then the say a 6% increase in efficiency is gained which means you net ~20 BHP(6% of 345). Lets remember that BHP is not Wheel HP and is a high assumption which still illustrates my point. By their own calculations they are saying you are still only netting a 20 BHP increase which may only realistically net you a 16 Wheel HP increase. This is far from 30 HP like you said or even better yet the "guaranteed" 25-30 Wheel horse power they claim.
But lets take into consideration the fact that all this you have quoted is "Marketing Jargon" and that the first statement they make is "general" and not specific to the HEMI.
Continuing on they say the HEMI has a 18% parasitic OEM converter and theirs is only 8%. On a HEMI, you then would be saying the OEM converter is soaking 63 BHP (18% of 345). Their converter is soaking only 3 BHP (8% of 345). This means their design "frees up" an additional 60 BHP which in Wheel HP term should net 48 HP increase but then they only claim that you will see 25-30 Wheel HP ... How come the nearly 50% discrepancy in teir approximation? remeber they are trying to sell you something...
Please remeber now .. im over the name calling and tryin to help illustrate a point ...
Now have you ever seem before and after dynos of a converter install? Look carefully and interpret the data based upon the means of gathering ... meaning consider whether an acellerometer dyno (dynojet type) or loaded eddy-current type (mustang, superflow) is used to gather data. This will provide you tremendous insite to number accuracy ... one component a accellerometer dyno cannot take into play is load (or at least cannot factor completely.) Load on a hydraulic interface (such as a torque conveter) will change thes INFLATED numbers that you are reporting. But even if you dont factor this in lets look at the graphs themselves. If you look carefully and test in the same conditions locked and un locked (TCC) you wil notice one thing - RWHP is identical @ peak when the converter is locked. When it is unlocked you may see efficency changes throughout the powerband however once above true stall teh curves will nearly be the same. Many such "marketed" performance gains tell you the change in HP @ low rpm which @ 2500 rpm or converter in netting 30 hp over stock .. ok well how long will you actually see 2500 @ wot when driving or better yet when racing? probably only a few brief seconds. Taking into effect shift points and relative shift extention gained with converters you probably would never see below 3500 @ wot
. When you look at the gains near this area i guarantee you are not seeing 30 Hp gains. It just doesnt happen.
Ad really thanks for the company data .. i really use information such as how long a business has been open and how much square footage they have to determine the reliability of a companies dat
.. lol sorry im being sarcaric again. BUt honestly look at this info and take it for what it means to you ... Im happy to engage in a technically inclined rational conversation but lets not quote marketing Jargon ... its not that real.So take in to consideration useable numbers and power ... is it capable of freeing up some HP down low .. ok sure .. how usable is that power, well it depends on your application and use (but for racing.. its not all that usable when the converter is in an unlocked condition) Its why they are called Torque converters and not HP generators. They benefit in available torque but its purpose is not to gain 25-30 RWHP .... Sorry but your 345 BHP truck which i have seen several lay down between 240-270 RWHP will not all the sudden be making the advertised 25-30 HP gains.
Buy one test it I'm sure my data is not wrong .. I have tested both a PI (Vig3500 custom) which i still own and a Yank (TT3000) which i sold.
Dec 30, 2003 | 08:36 AM
#53
lol and btw i still havent seen the converter that makes HP .. they have said their converters are still 8% parasitic .. still consuming not "making" anything
And loose the sarcasim .. internet searches is NOT "homework" buy a few converters get some time on a dyno and really understand real world applciations .. My job as an engineer of aftermarket components lend me to do this all the time ... with my own hands with my own eyes but on someone elses wallet ... but its real testing ... not internet quotes and post .. sorry NOT "homework" in my mind.
But we can agree to disagree ...
And loose the sarcasim .. internet searches is NOT "homework" buy a few converters get some time on a dyno and really understand real world applciations .. My job as an engineer of aftermarket components lend me to do this all the time ... with my own hands with my own eyes but on someone elses wallet ... but its real testing ... not internet quotes and post .. sorry NOT "homework" in my mind.
But we can agree to disagree ...
Dec 30, 2003 | 08:42 AM
#54
Originally Posted by onyx_silverado
how did we go from talking about dyno... to this? umm... that IS EXCITING!!
Dec 30, 2003 | 08:44 AM
#55
Originally Posted by oxidizr
Nice Marketing propaganda ... Dont forget these guys are tring to sell you their product.
Lets look at their own math and numbers they present. They tell you OEM can be 14% parasitic. So if this holds true a 345 HP motor would have a stock converter soak ~48 BHP (14% of 345.) Then the say a 6% increase in efficiency is gained which means you net ~20 BHP(6% of 345). Lets remember that BHP is not Wheel HP and is a high assumption which still illustrates my point. By their own calculations they are saying you are still only netting a 20 BHP increase which may only realistically net you a 16 Wheel HP increase. This is far from 30 HP like you said or even better yet the "guaranteed" 25-30 Wheel horse power they claim.
But lets take into consideration the fact that all this you have quoted is "Marketing Jargon" and that the first statement they make is "general" and not specific to the HEMI.
Continuing on they say the HEMI has a 18% parasitic OEM converter and theirs is only 8%. On a HEMI, you then would be saying the OEM converter is soaking 63 BHP (18% of 345). Their converter is soaking only 3 BHP (8% of 345). This means their design "frees up" an additional 60 BHP which in Wheel HP term should net 48 HP increase but then they only claim that you will see 25-30 Wheel HP ... How come the nearly 50% discrepancy in teir approximation? remeber they are trying to sell you something...
Please remeber now .. im over the name calling and tryin to help illustrate a point ...
Now have you ever seem before and after dynos of a converter install? Look carefully and interpret the data based upon the means of gathering ... meaning consider whether an acellerometer dyno (dynojet type) or loaded eddy-current type (mustang, superflow) is used to gather data. This will provide you tremendous insite to number accuracy ... one component a accellerometer dyno cannot take into play is load (or at least cannot factor completely.) Load on a hydraulic interface (such as a torque conveter) will change thes INFLATED numbers that you are reporting. But even if you dont factor this in lets look at the graphs themselves. If you look carefully and test in the same conditions locked and un locked (TCC) you wil notice one thing - RWHP is identical @ peak when the converter is locked. When it is unlocked you may see efficency changes throughout the powerband however once above true stall teh curves will nearly be the same. Many such "marketed" performance gains tell you the change in HP @ low rpm which @ 2500 rpm or converter in netting 30 hp over stock .. ok well how long will you actually see 2500 @ wot when driving or better yet when racing? probably only a few brief seconds. Taking into effect shift points and relative shift extention gained with converters you probably would never see below 3500 @ wot
. When you look at the gains near this area i guarantee you are not seeing 30 Hp gains. It just doesnt happen.
Ad really thanks for the company data .. i really use information such as how long a business has been open and how much square footage they have to determine the reliability of a companies dat .. lol sorry im being sarcaric again. BUt honestly look at this info and take it for what it means to you ... Im happy to engage in a technically inclined rational conversation but lets not quote marketing Jargon ... its not that real.
So take in to consideration useable numbers and power ... is it capable of freeing up some HP down low .. ok sure .. how usable is that power, well it depends on your application and use (but for racing.. its not all that usable when the converter is in an unlocked condition) Its why they are called Torque converters and not HP generators. They benefit in available torque but its purpose is not to gain 25-30 RWHP .... Sorry but your 345 BHP truck which i have seen several lay down between 240-270 RWHP will not all the sudden be making the advertised 25-30 HP gains.
Buy one test it I'm sure my data is not wrong .. I have tested both a PI (Vig3500 custom) which i still own and a Yank (TT3000) which i sold.
Lets look at their own math and numbers they present. They tell you OEM can be 14% parasitic. So if this holds true a 345 HP motor would have a stock converter soak ~48 BHP (14% of 345.) Then the say a 6% increase in efficiency is gained which means you net ~20 BHP(6% of 345). Lets remember that BHP is not Wheel HP and is a high assumption which still illustrates my point. By their own calculations they are saying you are still only netting a 20 BHP increase which may only realistically net you a 16 Wheel HP increase. This is far from 30 HP like you said or even better yet the "guaranteed" 25-30 Wheel horse power they claim.
But lets take into consideration the fact that all this you have quoted is "Marketing Jargon" and that the first statement they make is "general" and not specific to the HEMI.
Continuing on they say the HEMI has a 18% parasitic OEM converter and theirs is only 8%. On a HEMI, you then would be saying the OEM converter is soaking 63 BHP (18% of 345). Their converter is soaking only 3 BHP (8% of 345). This means their design "frees up" an additional 60 BHP which in Wheel HP term should net 48 HP increase but then they only claim that you will see 25-30 Wheel HP ... How come the nearly 50% discrepancy in teir approximation? remeber they are trying to sell you something...
Please remeber now .. im over the name calling and tryin to help illustrate a point ...
Now have you ever seem before and after dynos of a converter install? Look carefully and interpret the data based upon the means of gathering ... meaning consider whether an acellerometer dyno (dynojet type) or loaded eddy-current type (mustang, superflow) is used to gather data. This will provide you tremendous insite to number accuracy ... one component a accellerometer dyno cannot take into play is load (or at least cannot factor completely.) Load on a hydraulic interface (such as a torque conveter) will change thes INFLATED numbers that you are reporting. But even if you dont factor this in lets look at the graphs themselves. If you look carefully and test in the same conditions locked and un locked (TCC) you wil notice one thing - RWHP is identical @ peak when the converter is locked. When it is unlocked you may see efficency changes throughout the powerband however once above true stall teh curves will nearly be the same. Many such "marketed" performance gains tell you the change in HP @ low rpm which @ 2500 rpm or converter in netting 30 hp over stock .. ok well how long will you actually see 2500 @ wot when driving or better yet when racing? probably only a few brief seconds. Taking into effect shift points and relative shift extention gained with converters you probably would never see below 3500 @ wot
. When you look at the gains near this area i guarantee you are not seeing 30 Hp gains. It just doesnt happen.
Ad really thanks for the company data .. i really use information such as how long a business has been open and how much square footage they have to determine the reliability of a companies dat
.. lol sorry im being sarcaric again. BUt honestly look at this info and take it for what it means to you ... Im happy to engage in a technically inclined rational conversation but lets not quote marketing Jargon ... its not that real.So take in to consideration useable numbers and power ... is it capable of freeing up some HP down low .. ok sure .. how usable is that power, well it depends on your application and use (but for racing.. its not all that usable when the converter is in an unlocked condition) Its why they are called Torque converters and not HP generators. They benefit in available torque but its purpose is not to gain 25-30 RWHP .... Sorry but your 345 BHP truck which i have seen several lay down between 240-270 RWHP will not all the sudden be making the advertised 25-30 HP gains.
Buy one test it I'm sure my data is not wrong .. I have tested both a PI (Vig3500 custom) which i still own and a Yank (TT3000) which i sold.
someone got owned..
Dec 30, 2003 | 08:57 AM
#56
Launching!
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
From: claymont delaware
oxidizr......this all started when you said this......30 hp from a converter? ? wth .. converters dont make HP they actually consume it? .... thats not true they can free up lost hp... my truck is 4800#pounds and it needs all the help it can get to get it moving now if its getting extra power from low or high end its still making more power that can be used for dragracing a 4800# truck your ets are made from your 60ft and with the extra power my 60ft will be better wich will lower my 1/4 times
Dec 30, 2003 | 11:47 AM
#58
Launching!
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 207
Likes: 0
From: claymont delaware
onyxsilverado.......you must not of read everything.... oxidizr did say that a worked converter can make more low end power and thats still more power that our trucks need to get moving.....you should read his post again ...this all started when he said that a worked converter will not give you any more power and it does down low where we need it
Dec 30, 2003 | 12:24 PM
#60
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 556
Likes: 0
I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.
777, chassis dynos dont show you how much hp and tq your engine makes, is that a hard concept for you to grasp? They show how much power actually makes it all the way down through all the drivetrain, isn't sucked up by accessories and whatnot and actually gets on the ground. A more efficient tq converter isn't going to make any more hp, its only going to suck up a little bit less of the hp thats already been made. The only way a tq converter would ever make you power would be if you somehow rigged it up with a little motor of its own or something that actually produced power, ya dig?
777, chassis dynos dont show you how much hp and tq your engine makes, is that a hard concept for you to grasp? They show how much power actually makes it all the way down through all the drivetrain, isn't sucked up by accessories and whatnot and actually gets on the ground. A more efficient tq converter isn't going to make any more hp, its only going to suck up a little bit less of the hp thats already been made. The only way a tq converter would ever make you power would be if you somehow rigged it up with a little motor of its own or something that actually produced power, ya dig?