I did some looking around at other forums but didn't see anything that jumped out at me as containing the range of knowledge that I am looking for. Here's the deal...

I have been looking at constructing a system of some sort to generate electricity for my house. Steam engines have become a focus because of their reliability, among other things. A lot of reading over the past few months have led me to a few conclusions. One, an alternator, or series of alternators (permanent magnet type) can be made to generate between 6 and 10 kilowatts of power. Two, i need a reliable power source to turn the alternators with very low initial investment (no solar, no wind).

That got me looking into steam engines. As of now, Im not going to build a steam engine, but its not out of the question if it becomes necessary. But this research has progressed into the following...

an auto AC compressor, when reversed, works like a steam engine
steam requires a boiler, and fuel (not optimal)
steam is a gas

That leads me to my current question...
Assuming, in the system, there is an auto ac compressor as the engine (to turn the pulleys of the alternator), and another to re-compress the gas that expanded to feed the engine, what gas (ie. freon, nitrogen ,etc...) can replace the steam, making use of the expansion and condensation traits that is a liquid under a minimum of 150 - 200 psi at room temp, but boils under regular atmospheric pressures and temperatures?

I know this sounds crazy, but i have been trying to come up with reasons why it won't work, or can't work, but I haven't come up with anything. its time to try to test it. if I can get away with using a gas to power the engine, as opposed to having to boil water, thats a good thing.

anyone have any input on the question? do me a favor and start another thread to house all the flaming!!!

thanks guys

 

Ammonia A.K.A

R717

http://www.rmtech.net/Refrigeration.htm

 

I think your whole system is fundementally flawed. You want to use a compressor to feed an engine to turn alternators to make power?

Lets imagine for a second that you just have your two devices, the compressor and the engine. The best you could hope for is to break even on the energy (2nd law of thermodynamics), and since they arent perfect machines, you are going to loose energy through this process. Now since the engine is also turning alternators, and producing say 8kw as you said, that means if the alternators are perfectly effecient, then it will require 10.72 horsepower to produce your 8kw. I have no idea about the efficiencies of auto ac compressors, but I dont image they are that great, so you are looking at probably a 9-10kw input of mechanical energy to produce 8kw electrial power.

 

okay, thats a start. i have to look into it alot more, but at first glance, the caustic characteristics of it don't make it very friendly to a system designed out of mixed and matched parts.

do you work with this stuff? if so, are there any special design features of the compressors used with Ammonia?

thanks man.

 

i could be very wrong with what I am about to say, but here goes...

I agree with the math and the 2nd law of thermodynamics, but the power to drive the engine would be derived from the expansion of the compressed liquid into a gas. The only power requirement of the otherwise zero-input system is the power required to re-compress the gas back into a liquid. this is where my idea gets past the 2nd law, there is energy going back into the system. the potential power output of the system is adjustable; alternator materials and rotational speed.

i think what its going to come down to is the potential energy of the chosen gas as it expands, measured for this purpose as volume after expansion. the volume is necessary to maintain a minimum psi to dive the engine.

am I making sense?

I may be totally off, but i think it might be possible. what do you think?

 

You can vary the load on the system easily by using electric clutches on your alternators, or simply taking them out of the system entirely. The power required to recompress the gas will be the same as the amount of energy you can extract from it during decompression, assuming your methods and devices are perfectly effecient (which they are not). There is no getting around the 2nd law, its a law. There is no inherent energy in any gas you use, unless it is radioactive, but then that brings in a whole bucket of new problems.

 

Ok so you are trying to make an infinit power source, or a self regenerating power source? Pretty interesting what your trying to do... I think something can be made or done to accomplish this.

 

Sounds like it... we usually just call it a perpetual motion machine.

 

I have done this before with a 12Volt car battery a 9 volt DC motor and a Alternator. I used the battery to start the electric motor and get the alternator spinnning and when the alternator would put out enough power a switch owuld remove the battery from the system making the alternator power the 9 volt motor and so on. It would work for a little bit untill the 9 volt motor would burn out. Reason for a 9 volt motor was because if we used a 12 volt motor it wouldnt spin the alternator fast enough to create enough power to power anything if that makes sense. Pretty much the 9 volt motor was over powered to spin fast enough to create enough power to sustain enough rpm to keep powering itself. Well until it got hot and burned out. I never tried adding anything to the system I suppose if you were to add something in say in a parallel system maybe it could work but would have to be small or else it would slow done the electric motor. You could maybe have it trickle charge the battery to always keep the motor going if you could find a durable motor that wouldnt burn up maybe like a brushless motor but still dont think i could create enough power for anything. Maybe on a big scale but not small like what im talking about.

 

agreed, but isn't the introduction of electricity count as "energy entering the system"?

copied and pasted for those that don't know the law we are talking about.

thanks for the conversation Atomic, this is the kind of stuff I am looking for to really hone in on this idea.

think about this for a minute...
two permanent magnet alts, 3 phase to minimize the 'bump' associated with each pulse, and the rotors on ceramic bearings. pullied to generate desired output at high rpms. low engine speed maintained with pullies obviously.
plus one smaller alt dedicated to feed the compressor. I know this all sounds like a lot of drag but that can all be minimized...i think.

no, an infinite power generator is not possible. the 1st law states that energy cannot be created, only converted from one form to another. thats paraphrased. I am looking to create a very low input generator.