Turbo Princinples for Load,as Towing?
04-20-2018, 06:28 AM
#1
Turbo Princinples for Load,as Towing?
I am doing a custom frame off truck build.5.3 with E85.9K truck pulling 10k trailer.
Lots of info out there on how to turbo cars and trucks for street/strip...light loads,and when in motion,probably not a whole lot of load at all. Turbo info on pulling constant load....not so much.
I am guessing that driving style is probably as important as the equipment and system.I wouldn't be here if I were not a control freak who needs to be seeing and reading as many gauges as possible,and driving with the seat of my pants.Not a soccer mom who gets in,doesn't allow a warmup and hauls *** with no thought or worry...just the opposite.
Need to have the system principles down first before I can worry about driving it.Engine not on engine stand yet,parts not yet obtained,so the design of it all is wide open.So what are the distinct differences in a daily,towing frequently,under load,that will make things different than someone trying to set 1/4 mile on fire?And the fact that things need to last and not strand anybody?
Lots of info out there on how to turbo cars and trucks for street/strip...light loads,and when in motion,probably not a whole lot of load at all. Turbo info on pulling constant load....not so much.
I am guessing that driving style is probably as important as the equipment and system.I wouldn't be here if I were not a control freak who needs to be seeing and reading as many gauges as possible,and driving with the seat of my pants.Not a soccer mom who gets in,doesn't allow a warmup and hauls *** with no thought or worry...just the opposite.
Need to have the system principles down first before I can worry about driving it.Engine not on engine stand yet,parts not yet obtained,so the design of it all is wide open.So what are the distinct differences in a daily,towing frequently,under load,that will make things different than someone trying to set 1/4 mile on fire?And the fact that things need to last and not strand anybody?
04-20-2018, 07:10 AM
#2
TECH Fanatic
I’ll be honest that my towing turbo experience is with diesels but I’d imagine the same basic principles apply. You want something that’s going to spool quick and move a lot of air at low speeds to get you into the power curve as soon as possible. So something with a decent sized compressor and a smaller turbine and housing. On the flip side make sure it’s well balanced so you don’t run into any surging issues. Biggest intercooler you can fit to keep temps low.
04-20-2018, 10:44 AM
#4
I’ll be honest that my towing turbo experience is with diesels but I’d imagine the same basic principles apply. You want something that’s going to spool quick and move a lot of air at low speeds to get you into the power curve as soon as possible. So something with a decent sized compressor and a smaller turbine and housing. On the flip side make sure it’s well balanced so you don’t run into any surging issues. Biggest intercooler you can fit to keep temps low.
04-21-2018, 07:03 AM
#6
I had to actually sit here for a minute and visualize myself driving on the highway with a heavy trailer,let's say a 10,000 lb load.On a pretty flat road,trying to conserve fuel and maintain 65 mph.RPMs are about 2300,barely on throttle,Now lets say I hit a slight incline,and I can see ahead that it will last for a mile or so.I start to lose a bit of speed,and I need some throttle to stay at 65 mph.With turbo,do I slowly ease myself into throttle,as non turbo,or do I crack throttle more aggressively to spool and make boost? And if I am in boost,and trying to conserve fuel (this is not a race),am I watching my boost gauge,trying to keep a steady,low as possible boost? Let's also figure I am not in cruise control (more on that later) and lets also figure I am driving a stick (maybe more on that too).At that rpm,am I concerned about easing in it too slow and lugging,or do I want to get more aggressive and stab throttle,bring up boost and get myself into higher RPM range?
OK,so I am sure I would instinctively figure this out during the drive.But at this stage,planning and building a system,I would figure this may effect a couple of things.I am thinking exhaust manifold,tube sizing,crossover design and sizing,turbo and housing sizing,possibly cam design.
We can talk about heat in a little bit,I have a couple of questions on that,believe it.
I am also wondering if the turbo helps the engine torque by improving breathing even when it is not in boost,in other words,in low RPM conditions,under slight load,is the turbo helping the engine breathe and make power,compared to completely normally aspirated? If so,or even not,all the components of the exhaust would seem to need to be thought out to keep the engine as strong as possible,before boost even enters into it?
OK,so I am sure I would instinctively figure this out during the drive.But at this stage,planning and building a system,I would figure this may effect a couple of things.I am thinking exhaust manifold,tube sizing,crossover design and sizing,turbo and housing sizing,possibly cam design.
We can talk about heat in a little bit,I have a couple of questions on that,believe it.
I am also wondering if the turbo helps the engine torque by improving breathing even when it is not in boost,in other words,in low RPM conditions,under slight load,is the turbo helping the engine breathe and make power,compared to completely normally aspirated? If so,or even not,all the components of the exhaust would seem to need to be thought out to keep the engine as strong as possible,before boost even enters into it?
04-21-2018, 09:53 AM
#7
I've been reading your post for a while now but hesitating to respond... I have towed heavy (8000-10,000k) with my turbo truck several times from Texas to Oregon. If you want gas mileage and towing torque, put a 5.9 cummins and a 6 speed in the truck. If you want cool factor then a turbo gas motor will get the job done but not nearly as well especially a 5.3. You really need as much c.i. as possible.
As for mileage.. Expect 7-9 max towing those kind of loads. I never got more the 9.5 towing heavier, even running 65mph tops. You're not gonna be able lug the the load up a hill at 2300rpm with a turbo 5.3, It's gonna need a down shift and 3000 or so rpm and 6-7psi (MAX) boost. It's also gonna make a ton of heat! Like glowing all the pipes red heat. You'll definitely need to have a pyro and keep the temp below 1500 which it will want to make easily.
It's gonna need RPM to make power. You can't get low rpm boost and power out of a gas motor like you can a diesel with just boost. The gas motor will need some rpm too. It will make boost depending on how much throttle you give it if there is enough RPM to light the turbo but they don't like to be lugged.
I would highly suggest you run Meth injection too to help with cooling IAT's and suppress detianation.
Now towing light, 5-6K, like a car on an open trailer? Yeah, a gas turbo likes that, no problem, but you get heavy, especially with just a 5.3, It's not going to like that much at all and it will use the gas... The last time I towed my 69 to with my 6l turbo truck to Texas I had enough and bought a cheap 02 Duramax to tow it home and it was MUCH nicer! lol 12.5mpg compered to 8 and 75-80 compared to 65.
As for what turbo to use, my educated professional opinion would be a T6 Borg Warner S472 and spring the WG for no more then 7psi. With it's big 96mm turbine an 1.32 A/R it will make the boost with a low back pressure to try and keep the EGT's low.
As for mileage.. Expect 7-9 max towing those kind of loads. I never got more the 9.5 towing heavier, even running 65mph tops. You're not gonna be able lug the the load up a hill at 2300rpm with a turbo 5.3, It's gonna need a down shift and 3000 or so rpm and 6-7psi (MAX) boost. It's also gonna make a ton of heat! Like glowing all the pipes red heat. You'll definitely need to have a pyro and keep the temp below 1500 which it will want to make easily.
It's gonna need RPM to make power. You can't get low rpm boost and power out of a gas motor like you can a diesel with just boost. The gas motor will need some rpm too. It will make boost depending on how much throttle you give it if there is enough RPM to light the turbo but they don't like to be lugged.
I would highly suggest you run Meth injection too to help with cooling IAT's and suppress detianation.
Now towing light, 5-6K, like a car on an open trailer? Yeah, a gas turbo likes that, no problem, but you get heavy, especially with just a 5.3, It's not going to like that much at all and it will use the gas... The last time I towed my 69 to with my 6l turbo truck to Texas I had enough and bought a cheap 02 Duramax to tow it home and it was MUCH nicer! lol 12.5mpg compered to 8 and 75-80 compared to 65.
As for what turbo to use, my educated professional opinion would be a T6 Borg Warner S472 and spring the WG for no more then 7psi. With it's big 96mm turbine an 1.32 A/R it will make the boost with a low back pressure to try and keep the EGT's low.
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MrJuanderful (04-21-2018)
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04-21-2018, 09:49 PM
#9
I've been reading your post for a while now but hesitating to respond... I have towed heavy (8000-10,000k) with my turbo truck several times from Texas to Oregon. If you want gas mileage and towing torque, put a 5.9 cummins and a 6 speed in the truck. If you want cool factor then a turbo gas motor will get the job done but not nearly as well especially a 5.3. You really need as much c.i. as possible.
As for mileage.. Expect 7-9 max towing those kind of loads. I never got more the 9.5 towing heavier, even running 65mph tops. You're not gonna be able lug the the load up a hill at 2300rpm with a turbo 5.3, It's gonna need a down shift and 3000 or so rpm and 6-7psi (MAX) boost. It's also gonna make a ton of heat! Like glowing all the pipes red heat. You'll definitely need to have a pyro and keep the temp below 1500 which it will want to make easily.
It's gonna need RPM to make power. You can't get low rpm boost and power out of a gas motor like you can a diesel with just boost. The gas motor will need some rpm too. It will make boost depending on how much throttle you give it if there is enough RPM to light the turbo but they don't like to be lugged.
I would highly suggest you run Meth injection too to help with cooling IAT's and suppress detianation.
Now towing light, 5-6K, like a car on an open trailer? Yeah, a gas turbo likes that, no problem, but you get heavy, especially with just a 5.3, It's not going to like that much at all and it will use the gas... The last time I towed my 69 to with my 6l turbo truck to Texas I had enough and bought a cheap 02 Duramax to tow it home and it was MUCH nicer! lol 12.5mpg compered to 8 and 75-80 compared to 65.
As for what turbo to use, my educated professional opinion would be a T6 Borg Warner S472 and spring the WG for no more then 7psi. With it's big 96mm turbine an 1.32 A/R it will make the boost with a low back pressure to try and keep the EGT's low.
As for mileage.. Expect 7-9 max towing those kind of loads. I never got more the 9.5 towing heavier, even running 65mph tops. You're not gonna be able lug the the load up a hill at 2300rpm with a turbo 5.3, It's gonna need a down shift and 3000 or so rpm and 6-7psi (MAX) boost. It's also gonna make a ton of heat! Like glowing all the pipes red heat. You'll definitely need to have a pyro and keep the temp below 1500 which it will want to make easily.
It's gonna need RPM to make power. You can't get low rpm boost and power out of a gas motor like you can a diesel with just boost. The gas motor will need some rpm too. It will make boost depending on how much throttle you give it if there is enough RPM to light the turbo but they don't like to be lugged.
I would highly suggest you run Meth injection too to help with cooling IAT's and suppress detianation.
Now towing light, 5-6K, like a car on an open trailer? Yeah, a gas turbo likes that, no problem, but you get heavy, especially with just a 5.3, It's not going to like that much at all and it will use the gas... The last time I towed my 69 to with my 6l turbo truck to Texas I had enough and bought a cheap 02 Duramax to tow it home and it was MUCH nicer! lol 12.5mpg compered to 8 and 75-80 compared to 65.
As for what turbo to use, my educated professional opinion would be a T6 Borg Warner S472 and spring the WG for no more then 7psi. With it's big 96mm turbine an 1.32 A/R it will make the boost with a low back pressure to try and keep the EGT's low.
I think I mentioned somewhere,when it comes to my needs,its all about compromise.I travel unloaded,9000 lb.truck more than 80% of the miles.I tow a trailer(s) from 7000 to 13,000 lbs, probably less than 20% of the time.Terrain in my area is generally pretty flat.Trips of maybe an hour usually.
So why a 5.3? Well,much of the unloaded miles are at a 65 mph cruise,with not much throttle.No strain on the 6.0 at 10 mpg.If it were a 5.3,I am sure I would not feel the difference for that.Maybe improve on fuel a bit.I am pretty sure a little fresher 5.3 compared to the 300,000 mile 6.0,the power numbers would be very similar.And I am leaning toward putting it together with flat tops and small chamber heads for 10.5:1....on E85,should be decent NA.
If I were to be towing 2000 miles through rugged terrain and mountains,I don't know how many trips it would take before I came home with a diesel.Probably not many.
I am hoping that a boosted 5.3 would give me about 500 ft lbs. to work with.I can deal with that.I drove a 26,000 lb 6 wheeler loaded to the gills daily for several years. It had a 366 Big Block,manual choke,a 5 speed,and a 2 speed rear that only worked on holidays. It won't take much to make me happy.
