budhayes3

iTrader: (19)

I was grilling my pop this morning for some valve spring info that we may be interested in. I asked him his opinion on beehives vs. duals and titanium vs. steel vs. the new lightened steel retainers.

First, he doesn't like beehives, says that he's seen too many of them break and doesn't like not having the added security of a second spring to help save the valve/piston. I told him how a vast majority of the LS guys run them with great results, and he said that's cool, but he personally doesn't like building them on the engines that he builds.

Then I was asking him about spring manufacturers...he told me that there are only about 4 companies who make springs and sell them to the other companies, the biggest being Associated, who also makes a lot of OEM stuff. He prefers Manley Nextek, Isky, and PAC. According to pop, Patriots are garbage, and he hardly ever uses Comp springs, unless he has a weird application that only Comp offers a spring for. He's not really familiar with PRC or who supplies their springs/spring wire. I did mention to him that PRC has a great track record on PT.net.

Lastly I asked him about titanium vs. steel retainers. He told me that he uses titanium retainers on every engine that he builds, as the light weight of the ti retainers are good for an extra 300-400 usable RPM over a steel retainer. He learned this from research that he did using his engine dyno (every engine that he builds and sells gets dyno'd before it leaves his shop). I inquired about the longevity of ti retainers as I've heard that they have a tendency to wear out prematurely, and he said that he's only seen this as a problem on springs with flat dampers, which may dig into the retainer. He said that this isn't a problem on springs where the end is round. He mentioned that there are new lightweight steel retainers that are 33% lighter then regular hardened steel retainers, for folks who are hell bent on running steel retainers. FWIW, my dad runs ti retainers on all of his vehicles, from his 10 second Chevy 406 powered 81 Malibu, to his old 406 powered 67 street/strip Nova.

As I said above, he prefers Manley and Isky for springs, but he noted that not too many folks consider them when choosing springs since they don't have big full page ads like Comp and Crane.

I'm sure that a lot of guys will have their own opinions, and we'll see a lot of "well I've been running x-brand spring for x-amount of time and never had a problem", and that's all well and good. I'm just sharing some info that I got from my dad who has been in business building full out race and street/strip engines since 1971, which hold over 40 national records. Feel free to google "Bill Ceralli Racing Engines" or "Ceralli Engines" and I'm sure that you'll find some good info about my pop.

Off topic, but speaking of my dad, he called me yesterday and let me know that he is currently building a LSx block, which will check in just under 427 cid when he's done with it. I'm pretty sure that this will be his first GENIII build, and the engine is going into a 60's street/strip Chevy if I'm not mistaken...can't remember if it's a Chevelle, Nova, or what. I do remember that it will have CP pistons, Cometic head gaskets, heads that will be supplied by the gentleman that supplies MAST with their heads, and I believe the cam grind will be from the same gent. The cam is going to have .24x/.24-25x duration, and a 113-114 LSA. The intake will be a custom sheetmetal intake, that will be used not only for performance, but for styling as the owner of the muscle car is going for a certain look. Another reason for this style intake is that the engine will be ProCharged, and when my dad talked to FAST they didn't recommend one of their plastic intakes which won't be able to hold together under the planned boost levels this engine will see. When all is said and done, the mill should produce 900-1000 crank horsepower, which my dad will verify on his engine dyno. I asked him if he has everything that he needs to hook and LSx up to his dyno, and he said no problemo as the engine will be using a FAST controller and stand alone harness. I'll be sure to keep an eye on this build as I'm extremely excited that my pop finally has some new gen Chevy stuff in his shop...good practice for when we build my LQ9

Robert91RS

iTrader: (2)

Any chance your dad would share build pics? Always cool to see high budget builds go together.

smokeshow

iTrader: (16)

^^ I was thinking the same thing, sneak in there with a camera every now and then and post up

Gadgetized

iTrader: (9)

Yeah, and the dyno sheet when it is done would be awesome. I bet it will make a ton of torque. That engine sounds like a lot of fun.

budhayes3

iTrader: (19)

Yea, I already asked my dad if it would be OK for me to swing by periodically and take pics...I'll try to get there this week. The build just started and parts are on order, so I should be able to catch it from the very beginning. He hasn't even bored the cylinders yet. Once it's all done I'll try to snap a decent pic of the dyno sheet also I'll find out what the whole deal is gonna cost too...I know it won't be cheap, as we all know how much the LSx stuff costs, and my pop is quite expensive on the labor end also

AKlowriderZ71

iTrader: (22)

Thanks for the info Billy. What's your dad's opinion or thoughts on valvespring lifespan in a high performance application?

budhayes3

iTrader: (19)

Always glad to share good stuff when I come across it Roger Hopefully this can help some folks

I talked to him about that a while back, and from what I can remember, he said that it varies from application to application, and spring to spring, but I *thought* that he recommends that the springs be checked periodically for sagging, pressure, etc, but now I'm not so sure. I do know that he's not opposed to using used springs when necessary, (such as a customer coming in to have his engine checked and refreshed or whatever), as long as they check out OK and don't have a lot of runs on them I suppose. Last time I was at his shop he pointed out an engine that had springs which he had removed from his own engine.

Next time I go to his shop, which I plan to do soon to take some pics of the LSx, I'll ask him for his input on hi-perf spring longevity, and see if there's any general "rule of thumb"

budhayes3

iTrader: (19)

Haven't been able to get over to my dad's shop, but I did talk to him today and asked him this question. He said that it varies from application to application and spring to spring, and of course how hard you beat on them. I asked if they should be checked periodically and he mentioned that only problem with checking them is that you can only check them statically and can't check them dynamically. A spring may check good on the bench but still not function properly while in use, or at a certain RPM. He did give me a few examples though...the majority of the bracket engines that he builds are usually good for between 400-600 runs, spinning to 7500-8000, (maybe 3 seasons or so). Pro-Stock drag racers usually use their springs for 1 or 2 runs then chuck them. The highest funded Top Fuel teams only use their springs for 1 run.

He also told me of how certain springs don't like certain RPM's, like one spring won't do well idling and another won't do well above 7500 RPM etc, citing another example that he knew I would understand. A few years ago, the cup cars were turning like 9500 at certain tracks, but only 7500 on the restrictor plate tracks. They (or certain teams?) used the same springs at both tracks, and they were fine all day long spinning up to 9500, but saw multiple failures at 7500.

He made sure to make a point that the most important thing is to keep it light on the valve side, light retainers, keepers, valves etc, but it's not as important on the pushrod side. He uses duals and titanium retainers on everything he builds, and even titanium valves on the highest end stuff. He told me to buy the best springs that money can buy...(money, what's that? ) And again he listed Manley Nextek, PSI, Isky and PAC as the tops. (He listed the first 3 and I mentioned PAC and he agreed that they were of the highest quality)

Oh yea, he also mentioned that the new Moroso aluminum oil pan arrived for the LSX that the's building

JFOLM

iTrader: (8)

Good info.

I am curious as to how these high performance springs do on a DD. Let's say if I want to drive a .600 lift cam every day and want a dual spring for added security. When you say he says to check them often. How often? I can't imagine that many people actually do this. I want to check mine brand new out of the box when I decide on springs so I can compare actual readings vs. what they advertise. I guess to double check their Q.C.

I wonder if some of these failures are from mismatched builds. Not installed correctly, etc. etc.

budhayes3

iTrader: (19)

Well, I'm not so sure about how often as when I talked to him today he mentioned the shortcomings of checking them statically, and basically gave me the guidelines of when to basically throw them out as I mentioned in my previous post. I'm sure that if he was swapping a set that were about half way through their lifespan from one engine to another he would of course do the bench tests that he can, but kinda got the impression that his customers just run em for a few hundred runs then maybe get a freshen up and swap them out

I'm going to go back and change my reply to Roger about his question on spring longevity, as I was almost certain that my pop had mentioned checking them periodically in the past, but now I think that I may be mistaken. It was tough to get the info out of him that I did today as he had a shop full of people and had to run, and I didn't have his full attention.

Good idea to check them beforehand as an extra QC step, I definitely know that my dad tests and inspects absolutely every part that he installs...that I remember from when I worked with him a couple summers when I was younger.