What is this noise about a black box on our cars?
#101
I know enough not to touch anything airbag related, I've seen 3 set off between highschool shop classes and schools afterward, we put one face down and it easily shot 30 feet in the air. But unless there was something wong in the system I doubt the airbag would go off, most systems need to see 2 sensors triggered before it pops the airbags (tho I don't know GM systems well) That box sounds like its just the brain, but the point of my last post was that's all thats under the driver seat (except for a few stray french fries)
so either thats what logs the crash data (my guess) or theres a seperate module elsewhere and that link was wrong
so either thats what logs the crash data (my guess) or theres a seperate module elsewhere and that link was wrong
#102
Originally Posted by Flyer
I would bet that the mem clear command is given through the serial data wire. The problem with that would be that the serial data stream would be in bits. I wonder if it would throw codes if it were just disconnected?
#103
TECH Enthusiast
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From: Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by 03NHSilvy
I know enough not to touch anything airbag related, I've seen 3 set off between highschool shop classes and schools afterward, we put one face down and it easily shot 30 feet in the air. But unless there was something wong in the system I doubt the airbag would go off, most systems need to see 2 sensors triggered before it pops the airbags (tho I don't know GM systems well) That box sounds like its just the brain, but the point of my last post was that's all thats under the driver seat (except for a few stray french fries)
so either thats what logs the crash data (my guess) or theres a seperate module elsewhere and that link was wrong
so either thats what logs the crash data (my guess) or theres a seperate module elsewhere and that link was wrongThe Delco instructer told the class a story about a mechanic doing some repairs to the floor area of a sunfire. had the seat out and moved the SDM to get some better access when the bags blew. He lied and said the key was off but they used the reader and found the key was on. Only a few thousand $ oops that I think they made him pay for.
#104
Originally Posted by augie
A1 - Ignition (yellow, air bag fuse 15a)
A3 - Pass frontal high (white/black)
A4 - Class 2 serial data (dark blue)
A6 - Driver frontal high (white)
A7 - Driver frontal low (dark green)
A8 - Pass frontal low (dark green/white)
A9 - Pass SIR disable (pink)
A10 - Pass SIR enable (tan/black)
A11 - Discrim sensor input (yellow) (inflatable restraint front end discriminating sensor)
A12 - Sensor ground (black/white) (under driver seat)
A3 - Pass frontal high (white/black)
A4 - Class 2 serial data (dark blue)
A6 - Driver frontal high (white)
A7 - Driver frontal low (dark green)
A8 - Pass frontal low (dark green/white)
A9 - Pass SIR disable (pink)
A10 - Pass SIR enable (tan/black)
A11 - Discrim sensor input (yellow) (inflatable restraint front end discriminating sensor)
A12 - Sensor ground (black/white) (under driver seat)
#105
Going by the pinout ... it looks like A11 and A12 are the pins for the sensors, so as long as those aren't shorted, then we should be OK. I'm guessing that disconnecting pin4 will remove stop any data it's recieving, such as speed, TPS position, etc.
The money question is ... will disconnecting that pin disable the airbag system completely or will it send off an alarm, or do just what we want it to. Is there any way you can look through your books and find out Augie???
The money question is ... will disconnecting that pin disable the airbag system completely or will it send off an alarm, or do just what we want it to. Is there any way you can look through your books and find out Augie???
#106
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From: Ontario, Canada
I was talking with my boss about the idea's of somehow disabling the "black box". If you were to cut or disable the serial data wire you will cause the SES & airbag light to come on.
The SES light will come on due to the data line going down for the modules. This will cause body codes which will turn on the SES light.
If you pull the fuse for the air bag I think the air bag light will come on only. there is a possibility that both lights will come on either way due to the fact that the SIR is disabled.
There is no way around it, the only way you can disable the black box is to stop your air bags from working and 2 warning lights on your dash .
The SES light will come on due to the data line going down for the modules. This will cause body codes which will turn on the SES light.
If you pull the fuse for the air bag I think the air bag light will come on only. there is a possibility that both lights will come on either way due to the fact that the SIR is disabled.
There is no way around it, the only way you can disable the black box is to stop your air bags from working and 2 warning lights on your dash .
#107
Originally Posted by LS1csherm
1. Sorry - There are black boxes
2. Correct - you cannot disable them
3. Incorrect - insurance companies do work with dealers/manufacturers
to collect the info from the box - it records numerous items - like throttle positon, speed, gear, rpm, abs, and srs and a host of other items
Very helpful in processing claims.
Especially with fatalities.
2. Correct - you cannot disable them
3. Incorrect - insurance companies do work with dealers/manufacturers
to collect the info from the box - it records numerous items - like throttle positon, speed, gear, rpm, abs, and srs and a host of other items
Very helpful in processing claims.
Especially with fatalities.
#108
Originally Posted by anthony m
LOL You guys are killing me.GM uses an SDM for all the items you are referring to LS1csherm.It is not a "black box".
Why is the air bag module sometimes called the 'black box' ?
There are several possible origins of the term 'black box'. Some believe it is because early (flight data) recorders and WWII radar units were painted black, while others think it refers to the charring that occurs in post-accident fires. Yet another description is, "the term ‘black box’ has been used to describe something that performs a function, but its inner-workings are complex and mysterious." In media related stories, CNN uses the term black box to descibe the air bag module crash data "due to a lack of a better term."
There are several possible origins of the term 'black box'. Some believe it is because early (flight data) recorders and WWII radar units were painted black, while others think it refers to the charring that occurs in post-accident fires. Yet another description is, "the term ‘black box’ has been used to describe something that performs a function, but its inner-workings are complex and mysterious." In media related stories, CNN uses the term black box to descibe the air bag module crash data "due to a lack of a better term."

From http://www.airbagcrash.com/pages/4/index.htm :
AIR BAG SDM / BLACK BOX / CRASH DATA AVAILABLE (depending on year and model)
Vehicle speed (in five one-second intervals preceding impact)
Engine speed (in five one-second intervals preceding impact)
Brake status (in five one-second intervals preceding impact)
Throttle position (in five one-second intervals preceding impact)
Driver's seat belt state (On/Off)
Passenger's airbag enabled or disabled state (On/Off)
Airbag Warning Lamp status (On/Off)
Time from vehicle impact to airbag deployment
Maximum Delta-V ( DV ) for near-deployment event
Delta-V ( DV ) vs. time for frontal airbag deployment event
Time from vehicle impact to time of maximum Delta-V ( DV )
Time between near-deploy and deploy event (if within 5 seconds)
Vehicle speed (in five one-second intervals preceding impact)
Engine speed (in five one-second intervals preceding impact)
Brake status (in five one-second intervals preceding impact)
Throttle position (in five one-second intervals preceding impact)
Driver's seat belt state (On/Off)
Passenger's airbag enabled or disabled state (On/Off)
Airbag Warning Lamp status (On/Off)
Time from vehicle impact to airbag deployment
Maximum Delta-V ( DV ) for near-deployment event
Delta-V ( DV ) vs. time for frontal airbag deployment event
Time from vehicle impact to time of maximum Delta-V ( DV )
Time between near-deploy and deploy event (if within 5 seconds)
What’s more, the ABM records engine rpm, throttle position, and whether the driver is applying the brakes, even though these parameters have nothing to do with the deployment of the airbag. Furthermore, the system records these parameters every second, along with the vehicle speed, and remembers the last five data points.
Therefore, if you have a crash in which the ABM thinks about deploying the airbags - even if it doesn't - the airbag module records onto a memory chip the values for these parameters at the time of impact and for the previous five seconds.
...
I suspect few owners have any idea these data are being captured. And it’s not a difficult task to retrieve them. For $2495, Vetronix Corporation will sell you a crash-data-retrieval system that can transfer the recorded information from the ABM to a PC. What is unclear is who owns these data and who has the right to read them.
...
So the question arises: Can an owner erase the data before they can be downloaded? There are certainly ways of clearing a memory chip, or the vehicle’s owner could simply destroy or discard the ABM. But lawyer Peters advises against this move: "During a trial, the presumption is that lost evidence goes against the guy who lost it."
So, not only do most Americans have no idea their cars may be recording their driving behavior, but there’s also little they can do about it. And think about this: Current ABMs record just five seconds of data before a crash, but computer memory is dirt cheap. For very little cost, that recording time could be extended to five minutes—or five hours!
...
I find this march of technology, unrestrained by any laws or even public discussion, very disturbing. Not surprisingly, so does the American Civil Liberties Union.
...
We need to discuss these issues soon, before our cars are programmed to transmit their speeds to traffic cops using the Wi-Fi technology that will quickly be available for pennies per car.
Therefore, if you have a crash in which the ABM thinks about deploying the airbags - even if it doesn't - the airbag module records onto a memory chip the values for these parameters at the time of impact and for the previous five seconds.
...
I suspect few owners have any idea these data are being captured. And it’s not a difficult task to retrieve them. For $2495, Vetronix Corporation will sell you a crash-data-retrieval system that can transfer the recorded information from the ABM to a PC. What is unclear is who owns these data and who has the right to read them.
...
So the question arises: Can an owner erase the data before they can be downloaded? There are certainly ways of clearing a memory chip, or the vehicle’s owner could simply destroy or discard the ABM. But lawyer Peters advises against this move: "During a trial, the presumption is that lost evidence goes against the guy who lost it."
So, not only do most Americans have no idea their cars may be recording their driving behavior, but there’s also little they can do about it. And think about this: Current ABMs record just five seconds of data before a crash, but computer memory is dirt cheap. For very little cost, that recording time could be extended to five minutes—or five hours!
...
I find this march of technology, unrestrained by any laws or even public discussion, very disturbing. Not surprisingly, so does the American Civil Liberties Union.
...
We need to discuss these issues soon, before our cars are programmed to transmit their speeds to traffic cops using the Wi-Fi technology that will quickly be available for pennies per car.
#110
Originally Posted by marc_w
I'm not worried about OnStar either.
You can hear that thing dial up when you turn it on. It took them a few moments to locate where I was, when my girlfriend rang them up to ask for directions. I don't think it's something they're going to be running full-time on us.
Another case: A friend of mine works at a salvage yard. He turned the keys on a crashed vehicle to get the ODO reading off of it. OnStar dialed up, and an operator came on asking about the crash, and if everyone is okay. My friend explained the car was crashed a few weeks back, and it's at a salvage yard now. To me, it doesn't sound like they have the capability to accurately track any certain vehicle, nevermine all XXX,XXX thousand vehicles running it.
You can hear that thing dial up when you turn it on. It took them a few moments to locate where I was, when my girlfriend rang them up to ask for directions. I don't think it's something they're going to be running full-time on us.
Another case: A friend of mine works at a salvage yard. He turned the keys on a crashed vehicle to get the ODO reading off of it. OnStar dialed up, and an operator came on asking about the crash, and if everyone is okay. My friend explained the car was crashed a few weeks back, and it's at a salvage yard now. To me, it doesn't sound like they have the capability to accurately track any certain vehicle, nevermine all XXX,XXX thousand vehicles running it.
When I had trouble with my PCM, I pushed the On-Star button and the guy on the line got shitty with me because my "gps" wasn't working. I told him my PCM wasn't working properly. This told me that you could pull out your PCM and they couldn't find you!?!


