Originally Posted by smokeshow

I sympathize with your point. There's definitely a perfect storm of circumstances that has driven the tooner craze. Huge customer base, the average guy with a laptop not really knowing how most of the stuff works, the customer not knowing the difference between good and bad...and the overbearing confidence of the typical guy selling his services in the wake of all that, knowing that the performance of his product isn't tested against real standards and that any criticism of his work is met with claims that are unfalsifiable as far as the layman is concerned. How would Joe Customer know that E85 isn't "supposed to start bad"? Or that a big camshaft isn't "supposed to die when coming to a stop"? They only know what their dyno guy tells them for the most part, and that isn't much. And its really because the customers don't demand enough out of them. I tell everyone looking for a tooner to ask everything they can think of and really grill them before hiring them. Don't just bring it to them after a part is installed and take whatever they give you - ask how they plan on fixing the known issues that tend to accompany that mod, like a camshaft. And when they're done, check their work. And take any excuses with a grain of salt... There's a lot more to dialing in a camshaft than RPM and VE - because a larger cam does a lot more than just change fuel consumption and idle speed requirements.

Originally Posted by jclark10

Yes agreed, I should have worded it more like its very important to get the airflow model correct before doing anything first since a tooner isn't going to bother messing with VVE and then will fake the MAF curve to compensate for other inadequacies since its a simple 2D lookup table instead of multiple tables of coefficients.