Procharger vs Vortech
07-22-2011, 04:42 PM
#13
On The Tree
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know the tuner very will and he is good doing the job, what works for you guys over there in the state might not work for us over here in the Gulf, the design of the Procharger kit is not for our part of the world.
07-22-2011, 04:59 PM
#14
I realize it gets hit over there but we get 105* days with 100% humidity here in Texas which gives a heat index of 120+. A centrifugal supercharger is not a good idea for a 6000# vehicle period, I don't care what the brand is. If you want a roll racer then maybe I can understand but for drag racing a roots or twin screw is needed to move that heavy weight. With that said no matter what form of forced induction you're using short of going to e85 or major meth injection you're not going to be able to run much timing due to heat with any air to air intercooler and an air to water is only good if you're putting ice in it to get the water below ambient temperature.
The perfect setup for that Yukon denali is a tvs2300 or whipple 2.9 with a killer chiller installed to get the water in the air to water intercooler down low enough to run some decent timing. I'd be willing to bet any of the cars over there regardless of the form of forced induction even with meth are only getting mid teens for timing at wot. That's for the street driven vehicles of course.
The perfect setup for that Yukon denali is a tvs2300 or whipple 2.9 with a killer chiller installed to get the water in the air to water intercooler down low enough to run some decent timing. I'd be willing to bet any of the cars over there regardless of the form of forced induction even with meth are only getting mid teens for timing at wot. That's for the street driven vehicles of course.
07-22-2011, 05:23 PM
#15
On The Tree
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I realize it gets hit over there but we get 105* days with 100% humidity here in Texas which gives a heat index of 120+. A centrifugal supercharger is not a good idea for a 6000# vehicle period, I don't care what the brand is. If you want a roll racer then maybe I can understand but for drag racing a roots or twin screw is needed to move that heavy weight. With that said no matter what form of forced induction you're using short of going to e85 or major meth injection you're not going to be able to run much timing due to heat with any air to air intercooler and an air to water is only good if you're putting ice in it to get the water below ambient temperature.
The perfect setup for that Yukon denali is a tvs2300 or whipple 2.9 with a killer chiller installed to get the water in the air to water intercooler down low enough to run some decent timing. I'd be willing to bet any of the cars over there regardless of the form of forced induction even with meth are only getting mid teens for timing at wot. That's for the street driven vehicles of course.
The perfect setup for that Yukon denali is a tvs2300 or whipple 2.9 with a killer chiller installed to get the water in the air to water intercooler down low enough to run some decent timing. I'd be willing to bet any of the cars over there regardless of the form of forced induction even with meth are only getting mid teens for timing at wot. That's for the street driven vehicles of course.
07-22-2011, 07:52 PM
#17
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Posts: 948
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
good points there cody
but..
reasons why i chose a centrifugal over a PD blower:
1- i have a loose converter, when I floor it from a dig I dont see anything less than 3000+
RPMs
2 - my races are from a roll, so high RPM power IS what I need as opposed to low-end torque
3- Vortech/Procharger claim higher adiabatic efficiency than the PD blowers
4- what would you prefer temperature wise, a supercharger sitting on your engine or sitting away from your engine? The lowest IAT youll ever see on a TVS is 10+ degrees above ambient, with the A2W intercooler and the fact that the engine is heating the blower up.
5- Stock transmission and diff, the centri should be much more forgiving when I floor that thiing from any speed
6-with a TVS you are limited in boost to whatever the car can handle at PEAK VE or PEAK TORQUE in terms of timing without detonation, a centri on the other hand makes "about" half of its boost at peak torque while boost continues to ramp up to redline in turn compensating for the drop in VE
but..
reasons why i chose a centrifugal over a PD blower:
1- i have a loose converter, when I floor it from a dig I dont see anything less than 3000+
RPMs
2 - my races are from a roll, so high RPM power IS what I need as opposed to low-end torque
3- Vortech/Procharger claim higher adiabatic efficiency than the PD blowers
4- what would you prefer temperature wise, a supercharger sitting on your engine or sitting away from your engine? The lowest IAT youll ever see on a TVS is 10+ degrees above ambient, with the A2W intercooler and the fact that the engine is heating the blower up.
5- Stock transmission and diff, the centri should be much more forgiving when I floor that thiing from any speed
6-with a TVS you are limited in boost to whatever the car can handle at PEAK VE or PEAK TORQUE in terms of timing without detonation, a centri on the other hand makes "about" half of its boost at peak torque while boost continues to ramp up to redline in turn compensating for the drop in VE
07-23-2011, 12:08 PM
#18
good points there cody
but..
reasons why i chose a centrifugal over a PD blower:
1- i have a loose converter, when I floor it from a dig I dont see anything less than 3000+
RPMs
2 - my races are from a roll, so high RPM power IS what I need as opposed to low-end torque
3- Vortech/Procharger claim higher adiabatic efficiency than the PD blowers
4- what would you prefer temperature wise, a supercharger sitting on your engine or sitting away from your engine? The lowest IAT youll ever see on a TVS is 10+ degrees above ambient, with the A2W intercooler and the fact that the engine is heating the blower up.
5- Stock transmission and diff, the centri should be much more forgiving when I floor that thiing from any speed
6-with a TVS you are limited in boost to whatever the car can handle at PEAK VE or PEAK TORQUE in terms of timing without detonation, a centri on the other hand makes "about" half of its boost at peak torque while boost continues to ramp up to redline in turn compensating for the drop in VE
but..
reasons why i chose a centrifugal over a PD blower:
1- i have a loose converter, when I floor it from a dig I dont see anything less than 3000+
RPMs
2 - my races are from a roll, so high RPM power IS what I need as opposed to low-end torque
3- Vortech/Procharger claim higher adiabatic efficiency than the PD blowers
4- what would you prefer temperature wise, a supercharger sitting on your engine or sitting away from your engine? The lowest IAT youll ever see on a TVS is 10+ degrees above ambient, with the A2W intercooler and the fact that the engine is heating the blower up.
5- Stock transmission and diff, the centri should be much more forgiving when I floor that thiing from any speed
6-with a TVS you are limited in boost to whatever the car can handle at PEAK VE or PEAK TORQUE in terms of timing without detonation, a centri on the other hand makes "about" half of its boost at peak torque while boost continues to ramp up to redline in turn compensating for the drop in VE
For your application and current mods I agree with your choice and we have a LOT of knowledgeable procharger guys on here than can help you get that thing lined out and running teh best it can. For the sake of conversation lets talking about some of your other points you made.
While a centri blower has a higher adiabatic efficiency, at the end of the day everyone just cares about the useable power provided by a blower. A roots blower is much more efficient down low and tapers off up top whereas a centri has an exact inverse curve. So making a blanket statement that the centri has a higher AE is a bit misleading. For your application it is more efficient where you need it to be.
On the subject of manifold blowers versus sidemount I feel there is relatively little difference. Its negligible at best IMO of course. Strictly speaking of A2W intercooler systems as it wouldnt be fair to compare A2A in reference to the subject of manifold or sidemount blowers. Remember an A2W setup no matter what blower its attached to is going to have a couple gallons of liquid capacity and its heat exchanger is going to cool the liquid with the same air no matter the blower. One could argue that the air a manifold blower is starting off with is a bit hotter since the unit is heatsoaked but engine oil temps are going to get up into the 240* degree range in the heat and header primaries(where the sidemount is sitting over) are well over 1000* at WOT. Obviously we are talking about radiant and direct heat too but the heat difference is substantial so IMO its the same difference. As mangled said, the intake position of the procharger made little difference in IATs and Id expect the same in reference to manifold vs sidemount. Most people with magnachargers see their IATs at the beginning of a pull pretty damn close to ambient(when cruising they heat soak bad sitting still but then again everything else does too) so I dont really see how its hurting performance being a manifold design. Short of running a tube out to the grille somewhere I dont think youre going to get the IATs too under control. Ive used quite a few different intake setups and the boxed in systems are the worst.
On the peak tq boost deal, thats easily taken care of. Your timing should be sloped on either side of peak tq anyway. A lot of the guys pushing the TVS series hard in the G8 and GTOs simply run less at peak tq and taper it up on either side of peak tq. The engine doesnt care what has increased its cylinder mass so why not have maximum cylinder mass and adjust timing accordingly to get the maximum amount of safe power? By the typical pk tq rpm of 4800 for a cammed LS motor Id bet youre going to be well over half of max boost with a D1. From what Ive seen centris only gain a pound or two after 5000ish unless youre spinning it to the moon.
I think no matter what if I were you guys and was searching for a way to get maximum power in that ridiculous climate Id get one of these.
https://www.performancetrucks.net/fo...talled-448550/
All my opinion of course and may be totally wrong but thats the way I see it.
I think the best setup you couldve done is a turbo with an A2W intercooler with the killer chiller. Turbos hit a little softer than roots blowers but have adjustable on the fly boost control, no belt issues, generally net better IATs at a given boost level and are cheaper too now
07-23-2011, 07:21 PM
#19
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Dubai, U.A.E
Posts: 948
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
thanks for spending the time to write the long reply, I totally understand what you're saying and that makes sense completely, the reason for AWD is that there is 0 wheel spin.. and when cars have to deal with some at 20 or 40 roll i dont.. i thought the centri wasn't a bad idea is because i spend most of the time above 5k rpm, so i only go through low rpms when i launch it... check out the video.. the speedo is in kph, all motor , mods in my sig
