Max effort... Turbo vs big Procharger
02-14-2014, 02:05 AM
#13
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The only thing I haven't said much about is the turbos mainly because the guy I got them from didn't really know. His combo is an 06 like mine with a 4l80, 6.0l I think it had a small cam and made mid 600's@ wheel. He wanted to sell kit because the manifolds cracked twice and were repaired, and wanted to go big single. I make custom turbo kits in my spare time and can whip a new set up easily with my tig. Reinforce the flanges with special bracketry. And heavier wall stainless piping. I will either install it, and run it or sell it complete to one of my other customers that have been bugging me about it.
I like Prochargers and have been a dealer for them since 08. But I have never ran there product on my personal shop vehicles. My biggest reason for doing Procharger is because I'm kinda bored with turbos I've done two front mount retaining ac kits and a rear mount that's really exotic all on f bodies this year. And made some great power doing them. Recently I took a customers 2014 camaro ss to receive the first I1 kit for 2014 camaros and toured there Prochargers factory in Lenexa, ks. Also got to meet some of the guys I've talked to for years but never met. I told one of the guys there about my truck build and told him I wanted to go fi with it but it's more race oriented than the standard kit can support. We then walked out side and I showed it to him I popped the hood and he was quite surprised to see the big tunnel ram and large headers. Lol so then I was asking him if the standard bracketry would work with my setup. Ideally I think it needs to be on passenger side. He said all he has for brackets on pass side is vette bracketry and would make inlet front entry, reverse drive, so struck out. Then I saw the hob kit on this site and I was back at it. That's what I truest wanted was dedicated drive, and on passenger side. So that's why I'm leaning Procharger and they are a faster turn around for me in shop. So I contacted hob and now am a dealer for them as well. I try to give my customers as many options as posible for getting what they truly want. But I also try to test out what I'm bidding before I sell stuff so I can give estimates accurately to keep the unknown costs to a minimum. As most guys are on a tight budget and mid project changes can hinder progress.
I like Prochargers and have been a dealer for them since 08. But I have never ran there product on my personal shop vehicles. My biggest reason for doing Procharger is because I'm kinda bored with turbos I've done two front mount retaining ac kits and a rear mount that's really exotic all on f bodies this year. And made some great power doing them. Recently I took a customers 2014 camaro ss to receive the first I1 kit for 2014 camaros and toured there Prochargers factory in Lenexa, ks. Also got to meet some of the guys I've talked to for years but never met. I told one of the guys there about my truck build and told him I wanted to go fi with it but it's more race oriented than the standard kit can support. We then walked out side and I showed it to him I popped the hood and he was quite surprised to see the big tunnel ram and large headers. Lol so then I was asking him if the standard bracketry would work with my setup. Ideally I think it needs to be on passenger side. He said all he has for brackets on pass side is vette bracketry and would make inlet front entry, reverse drive, so struck out. Then I saw the hob kit on this site and I was back at it. That's what I truest wanted was dedicated drive, and on passenger side. So that's why I'm leaning Procharger and they are a faster turn around for me in shop. So I contacted hob and now am a dealer for them as well. I try to give my customers as many options as posible for getting what they truly want. But I also try to test out what I'm bidding before I sell stuff so I can give estimates accurately to keep the unknown costs to a minimum. As most guys are on a tight budget and mid project changes can hinder progress.
In for info..
02-15-2014, 12:32 AM
#18
I've never owned a turbocharged truck but have ridden in many and even tuned a few. After that, I have been left with this impression...
People on the pro-turbo side will tell you that with the proper hotside, turbine, a/r that spool times are no longer an issue. That is right.....in a drag racing scenario where we are blessed with transbrakes and 2-steps.
Of the truely streetable (and I mean reliable transportation) turbo trucks I've ridden in, power delivery is lazy compared to a procharger. Now once it gets rolling that is another story. But low rpm throttle response and torque is what makes a street car fun.
When my truck was a street truck, I could drive it anywhere, anytime and would embarrass most turbo street trucks from an unsuspecting roll (no brake boosting or any of that bullshit).
The guys that have belt issues, just aren't doing the right things to keep these issues at bay. My truck ran bottom 11's on factory stock suspension for 3 years on the same belt (the one that came with the kit with factory procharger bracket, stock tensioner and 6-rib). I blame procharger for this bad belt issue reputation and think that they could do something about it if they wanted.
When I stepped up to an 8-rib setup and HD tensioner, I was able to turn the D1sc 106% max recommended speed, making 23 psi boost and never had a belt problem. The truck ran mid-10's (10.46 was the best) at 4550lbs, and would foot brake 8 psi with stock brakes instantly. No waiting. It was a terror on the street in this configuration, and a ton of fun. 8-10 psi at 3500 rpm was nuts.
I have never owned more than 1 8-rib belt for this truck.
From a complexity standpoint, this was done with an out of the box procharger kit with a couple of small mods to fix the alt bracket problems, most don't know about or care to see, and a strut to stiffen up the bracket a little.
Turbo kits are not as simple and can require more fabrication, electronics and oil system mods to work correctly. They will often need parts/pieces outside of a typical kit (wastegates and bov's).
They are different animals to tune as well. In my opinion it takes a more skilled tuner to extract power/reliability/driveability from a street type turbo truck.
I could go on and on, but you get the point. Both will make the power......delivery, cost and complexity is the difference.
One thing that I didn't mention is sound. Supercharged engines are obviously a lot louder than their turbo'd brother. The F-series blower can easily be too loud for some. For me.......that's part of the attraction.
probably have to be a fl-a or fl-r i think the fl-x would be good in a car or lighter vehicle.
I may have them all confused. If you go with the HOB setup for that kind of power level you will likely need to change the charge piping and only really utilze the bracket and head unit.
I may have them all confused. If you go with the HOB setup for that kind of power level you will likely need to change the charge piping and only really utilze the bracket and head unit.
If you had belt issues on your 8-rib D1sc setup, it was likely the users fault and not the blower kits.
imo f1 is just to much for a street truck and unlike turbo you cant get by with out forged internals .we ran the f series on our mustang and we keep having problems(breaking ****) .you really got to have a real nice fuel system for f series. NOW WITH THAT SAID I am not bashing prochargers big power.just think a d1 is more than plenty for a truck
The fuel system does need to be a little better on a blown deal, but if you don't have enough for a blower, you likely don't have enough for a turbo either.
Everyone knows I'm pro-procharger compared to a turbo. A lot of it is personal preference. I don't however want to be mistaken for the guy that says a turbo is garbage. They certainly have their place and obviously can make a ton of power. I just feel like the procharger has a bad wrap because most of the users aren't doing the right things to make it work like it should, give up immediately, then come on the forums and bash them. You will rarely see someone who has issues with a procharger, give up and go turbo, and never have issues again. There is a lot of monkey see monkey do because of the internet.
I could go on and on.............both have their place and 90% of the time it's personal preference. Bottom line, a properly utilized, street type, procharged deal can be just as good, if not better, than a comparable turbo deal. Again, "good" and "better" are relative to what one is trying to accomplish.
If prochargers where half the garbage that most claim them to be.....they'd be out of business.
02-15-2014, 09:17 AM
#20
Neither way is bad, it really just depends on how you want the power delivered and how you can deal with the complexity of each system. 1000rwhp is no joke and regardless of turbo or procharged it won't be as civil as some make it out to be.
I've never owned a turbocharged truck but have ridden in many and even tuned a few. After that, I have been left with this impression...
People on the pro-turbo side will tell you that with the proper hotside, turbine, a/r that spool times are no longer an issue. That is right.....in a drag racing scenario where we are blessed with transbrakes and 2-steps.
Of the truely streetable (and I mean reliable transportation) turbo trucks I've ridden in, power delivery is lazy compared to a procharger. Now once it gets rolling that is another story. But low rpm throttle response and torque is what makes a street car fun.
When my truck was a street truck, I could drive it anywhere, anytime and would embarrass most turbo street trucks from an unsuspecting roll (no brake boosting or any of that bullshit).
The guys that have belt issues, just aren't doing the right things to keep these issues at bay. My truck ran bottom 11's on factory stock suspension for 3 years on the same belt (the one that came with the kit with factory procharger bracket, stock tensioner and 6-rib). I blame procharger for this bad belt issue reputation and think that they could do something about it if they wanted.
When I stepped up to an 8-rib setup and HD tensioner, I was able to turn the D1sc 106% max recommended speed, making 23 psi boost and never had a belt problem. The truck ran mid-10's (10.46 was the best) at 4550lbs, and would foot brake 8 psi with stock brakes instantly. No waiting. It was a terror on the street in this configuration, and a ton of fun. 8-10 psi at 3500 rpm was nuts.
I have never owned more than 1 8-rib belt for this truck.
From a complexity standpoint, this was done with an out of the box procharger kit with a couple of small mods to fix the alt bracket problems, most don't know about or care to see, and a strut to stiffen up the bracket a little.
Turbo kits are not as simple and can require more fabrication, electronics and oil system mods to work correctly. They will often need parts/pieces outside of a typical kit (wastegates and bov's).
They are different animals to tune as well. In my opinion it takes a more skilled tuner to extract power/reliability/driveability from a street type turbo truck.
I could go on and on, but you get the point. Both will make the power......delivery, cost and complexity is the difference.
One thing that I didn't mention is sound. Supercharged engines are obviously a lot louder than their turbo'd brother. The F-series blower can easily be too loud for some. For me.......that's part of the attraction.
I gotta disagree with the first sentence. An 8-rib set up should work just fine on a slowed down f1, f1d or f1a. A dedicated drive (such as the one from HOB or the lsx transplant bracket) should be no issue for any of the f1 series blowers.
The x is a mean blower regardless of the weight of the vehicle. The power level at a certain boost level will dictate which blower is right for you.
Procharger does recommend cog drives on all their f-series blowers, but lets not confuse "recommend" and "mandatory". I just don't want someone to get the idea that it's cog or nothing. A properly set up 8-rib can work even with an F1r. Again it's going to depend on the power you are trying to make with a particular blower at a particular blower speed.
If you had belt issues on your 8-rib D1sc setup, it was likely the users fault and not the blower kits.
"too much blower" is relative. What seems like too much for some may be just right for others. The fact that F-series blowers can't work on stock bottom ends is bullshit sans the addition of woodruff keys or pins.
The fuel system does need to be a little better on a blown deal, but if you don't have enough for a blower, you likely don't have enough for a turbo either.
Everyone knows I'm pro-procharger compared to a turbo. A lot of it is personal preference. I don't however want to be mistaken for the guy that says a turbo is garbage. They certainly have their place and obviously can make a ton of power. I just feel like the procharger has a bad wrap because most of the users aren't doing the right things to make it work like it should, give up immediately, then come on the forums and bash them. You will rarely see someone who has issues with a procharger, give up and go turbo, and never have issues again. There is a lot of monkey see monkey do because of the internet.
I could go on and on.............both have their place and 90% of the time it's personal preference. Bottom line, a properly utilized, street type, procharged deal can be just as good, if not better, than a comparable turbo deal. Again, "good" and "better" are relative to what one is trying to accomplish.
If prochargers where half the garbage that most claim them to be.....they'd be out of business.
I've never owned a turbocharged truck but have ridden in many and even tuned a few. After that, I have been left with this impression...
People on the pro-turbo side will tell you that with the proper hotside, turbine, a/r that spool times are no longer an issue. That is right.....in a drag racing scenario where we are blessed with transbrakes and 2-steps.
Of the truely streetable (and I mean reliable transportation) turbo trucks I've ridden in, power delivery is lazy compared to a procharger. Now once it gets rolling that is another story. But low rpm throttle response and torque is what makes a street car fun.
When my truck was a street truck, I could drive it anywhere, anytime and would embarrass most turbo street trucks from an unsuspecting roll (no brake boosting or any of that bullshit).
The guys that have belt issues, just aren't doing the right things to keep these issues at bay. My truck ran bottom 11's on factory stock suspension for 3 years on the same belt (the one that came with the kit with factory procharger bracket, stock tensioner and 6-rib). I blame procharger for this bad belt issue reputation and think that they could do something about it if they wanted.
When I stepped up to an 8-rib setup and HD tensioner, I was able to turn the D1sc 106% max recommended speed, making 23 psi boost and never had a belt problem. The truck ran mid-10's (10.46 was the best) at 4550lbs, and would foot brake 8 psi with stock brakes instantly. No waiting. It was a terror on the street in this configuration, and a ton of fun. 8-10 psi at 3500 rpm was nuts.
I have never owned more than 1 8-rib belt for this truck.
From a complexity standpoint, this was done with an out of the box procharger kit with a couple of small mods to fix the alt bracket problems, most don't know about or care to see, and a strut to stiffen up the bracket a little.
Turbo kits are not as simple and can require more fabrication, electronics and oil system mods to work correctly. They will often need parts/pieces outside of a typical kit (wastegates and bov's).
They are different animals to tune as well. In my opinion it takes a more skilled tuner to extract power/reliability/driveability from a street type turbo truck.
I could go on and on, but you get the point. Both will make the power......delivery, cost and complexity is the difference.
One thing that I didn't mention is sound. Supercharged engines are obviously a lot louder than their turbo'd brother. The F-series blower can easily be too loud for some. For me.......that's part of the attraction.
I gotta disagree with the first sentence. An 8-rib set up should work just fine on a slowed down f1, f1d or f1a. A dedicated drive (such as the one from HOB or the lsx transplant bracket) should be no issue for any of the f1 series blowers.
The x is a mean blower regardless of the weight of the vehicle. The power level at a certain boost level will dictate which blower is right for you.
Procharger does recommend cog drives on all their f-series blowers, but lets not confuse "recommend" and "mandatory". I just don't want someone to get the idea that it's cog or nothing. A properly set up 8-rib can work even with an F1r. Again it's going to depend on the power you are trying to make with a particular blower at a particular blower speed.
If you had belt issues on your 8-rib D1sc setup, it was likely the users fault and not the blower kits.
"too much blower" is relative. What seems like too much for some may be just right for others. The fact that F-series blowers can't work on stock bottom ends is bullshit sans the addition of woodruff keys or pins.
The fuel system does need to be a little better on a blown deal, but if you don't have enough for a blower, you likely don't have enough for a turbo either.
Everyone knows I'm pro-procharger compared to a turbo. A lot of it is personal preference. I don't however want to be mistaken for the guy that says a turbo is garbage. They certainly have their place and obviously can make a ton of power. I just feel like the procharger has a bad wrap because most of the users aren't doing the right things to make it work like it should, give up immediately, then come on the forums and bash them. You will rarely see someone who has issues with a procharger, give up and go turbo, and never have issues again. There is a lot of monkey see monkey do because of the internet.
I could go on and on.............both have their place and 90% of the time it's personal preference. Bottom line, a properly utilized, street type, procharged deal can be just as good, if not better, than a comparable turbo deal. Again, "good" and "better" are relative to what one is trying to accomplish.
If prochargers where half the garbage that most claim them to be.....they'd be out of business.