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Wideband shootout - 9 sensors tested
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Innovate OWNZ!!!
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that was the LC-1 by innovative correct? I heard those had the tendancy to crap out on ya???
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Interesting article. They all seem to be limited as far as logging and tuning go, which requires additional capabilities. There was an article in the July issue of Truckin' some fellow did a Dyno tune, really righteous, but used HP Tuners suite in asddition to the Fast wide band set up.........
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Originally Posted by BlackGMC
that was the LC-1 by innovative correct? I heard those had the tendancy to crap out on ya???
BTW: Ever since it has came back it was in my car for 8 months with no problems what so ever. Just recalibrate it every 6 months. |
Awesome,thanks for tht man.
I have the innovate LM1 which I need so I can take it from truck to truck and I have never had any problems at all. |
Yep, I bought an LM-1 before the LC-1 had come out. I had to replace the sensor one time but, no problems at all from the unit itself.
Good link thunder. :) |
Originally Posted by 99RCSB
Mine xd-16 system had went out once. Only thing that happened was i couldn't get logworks to work. I had to pay for shipping to get it fixed,but it is dead on accurate. Customer service was awesome. If your buying a wideband it is the only choice.
BTW: Ever since it has came back it was in my car for 8 months with no problems what so ever. Just recalibrate it every 6 months. |
http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2...mages/lead.jpg
WOW! hmmm...this article may be sticky material. Copy and paste time. |
How good are the autometer wide bands?
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Wait....that means.....I'M FAMOUS!! My pic is in a sticky! :pimp: :fluffy: :moon: |
Originally Posted by thunder550
Damn! I knew posting that pic was a bad idea!! :jest: :jest: :jest:
Wait....that means.....I'M FAMOUS!! My pic is in a sticky! :pimp: :fluffy: :moon: :) :jest: stickythunder550 |
Excellent non-biased info. :judge:
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btw, I emailed Dynojet already about this article. Told them I am very displeased and was looking for a reply from them on how their product stood up. $500 bucks for a pretty poor finish IMO. A good thing about my Dynojet is I have no ground offset issues with my tuning software.
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But look at the picture of how they supposedly test accuracy. Are they really trying to tell me that holding up a sensor to a tank of room-temperature gas and then cranking the valve open is going to give anything resembling a repeatable result?
I mean the article itself mentions the necessity of keeping the sensor where it can stay warm enough, and every manufacturer says the same thing. And then there's the probability of pulling in fresh air with it. They shoulda used that 9-in-1 pipe, blocked it and then flooded it. |
READ THE WHOLE STORY!!!
After testing with lab gas the sensors were run-in for an hour with race fuel, on a test engine (Westech just happened to have a Chevy motor in the dyno room that day.) The run in simulates the wear and tear a sensor goes through with live fuel and heat conditions. |
Good find Thunder!!
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Originally Posted by 1FUNZ71
READ THE WHOLE STORY!!!
After testing with lab gas the sensors were run-in for an hour with race fuel, on a test engine (Westech just happened to have a Chevy motor in the dyno room that day.) The run in simulates the wear and tear a sensor goes through with live fuel and heat conditions. |
I wrote dynojet an email. I will copy and past. You gotta read bottom up.
Thanks for passing this along Dewey, we appreciate it. I wasn't aware of this test, and I am a little concerned with the outcome myself. I can guarantee you that when we perform random sampling with "calibrated gas" (13.083 AFR petrol / .89 lambda), the sensor included with each WBC is +/- .05 AFR. Bosch actually "calibrates" each and every sensor that goes out the door, the critical "trim / cal resistor" value is actually unique to each sensor. Since we only perform random sampling on the sensor, we are actually relying of Bosch's QC measures, and to be frank, they're quite good at what they do. You're correct, sensor accuracy / error is very critical, that's why over 4500 Dynojet dynos all over the world use the same technology that's incorporated in the WBC. We make a living manufacturing and selling dynos and power enhancement devices (ie. Power Commanders), and each one of these systems / devices relies on accurate AFR readings. The sensor that most company's use is the same family of sensor that we've used since 1997, so we have years of testing and confidence in our product. I will agree that a shortcoming of the WBC is that there isn't a way to diagnose the sensor integrity. When used with unleaded fuel, the sensor is designed (by Bosch) to provide years of trouble free, accurate readings. We do allow the end user to "calibrate the sensor", in fact, the only way to do this is to remove the "trim / cal resistor" and allow the software to "skew", or compensate for a sensor that is reading incorrectly or failing. It's best to replace the sensor at a service interval that makes sense based on your driving style and application. I personally have supercharged and turbocharged vehicles, and as a matter of habit, I'll change the sensor every 12k miles or yearly, whatever comes first. I'll check into the latency of the 0-5v output for data acquisition purposes. This test indicated the 0-5v analog output, which you would use to send the signal to a separate device (datalogger, etc etc), had a latency of 500ms. I've posed this question to our engineering group to see if they have any feedback. Regards, Dan Hourigan Vice President Dynojet Research Inc. From: dewmanshu [mailto:dewmanshu@deweygibson.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 8:04 PM To: tech@widebandcommander.com Cc: dewey@bowenelectric.net Subject: comparing different widebands You guys have any input on this article by FordMuscle Magazine? http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2007/06/WidebandShootout/index.php I have owned your wideband for almost 2 years and I gotta say, that data depresses me. Nothing in the world would bother me more when it comes to tuning my truck than an error adjustment on my wideband. That could cause me to blow my motor. I am not bitching, too much, but curious what your take is. Please respond “to all” so I can get this at work as well. Dewey Gibson |
more response
That's fine, feel free to share this with your colleagues and forum moderators. You're right, when passing the data via the 0-5v output, the potential creating a ground offset is critical. I've had plenty of SCT Xcal2 owners notice a .2-.3 difference because of the ground offset, but the HPT device seems to be spot on. It is very important to make sure the WBC software and datalogs match the 3rd party device datalogs. Normally you can find the WBC for $429, as that's the minimum advertised price. I really do think, even to this day, that we offer more "bang for the buck" with all of the features that we offer. WBC v2.0 is on the horizon (SEMA), and it will be a rather low cost wideband controller with a 0-5v and CAN output ($200-$250). The 0-5v could be sent out to a data acquisition device, or even drive a low cost gauge. The other option, which really blows open the possibilities, is to send the CAN output to this: powercommander 3 usb(non sposnor link removed) This thing is $300 and opens a lot of doors for us. It's geared towards the Powercommander line of products, as it allows you to store fuel maps, upload the maps to the Powercommander, as well as datalog the various channels that are tied into the system. We do plan on developing a specific version of software for the LCD display that's more "WBC v2.0 friendly", so that will be cool. Regards, ---------------- Dan Hourigan Vice President Dynojet Research Inc. From: Dewey Gibson [mailto:dewey@bowenelectric.net] Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 10:32 AM To: 'Danny Hourigan'; 'Dewey (home) Gibson' Subject: RE: comparing different widebands Dan, I appreciate your response, as I know that you know (Saturday Night skit in the working there) your response, be it good or bad is very important. I will pass your response on to fellow performance colleagues and forum moderators if you don’t mind. I am a moderator on performancetrucks.net and I can tell you, wideband units are a common topic. Ground offset being a HUGE factor in my opinion. I certainly agree, Bosch QC appears to be good at what they call a profession. If you’re interested, a link to a thread on our forum is here LINKY or https://www.performancetrucks.net/forums/showthread.php?t=395805 I am sure, knowing the forum world, this article is running every where by now, and to be honest, your product’s pricing not being favorable-I’d imagine this article isn’t going to do your sales much good. Quiet frankly, not to kiss ass, but I like your software (ease of) and instructions are pretty simple and detailed. I’d only ask that your controller wouldn’t close the relay when it’s powered down. Thanks again, Dewey Gibson |
and....
Dewey, one thing I just learned about the "latency".............. "We have an averaging function of air-fuel that is software selectable. We have a default averaging set so that the gauge does not bounce around. Averaging to signal from sensor then sent to gauge and 0-5 v out. Lowering the averaging number lowers the delay to almost nothing on all outputs. I don't have the software in front of me, but I believe there is a setting called "sensitivity", and according to the engineers, that setting effects both the gauge latency, as well as the 0-5v output. Hope this helps, ---------------- Dan Hourigan |
sorry about the not so chronological order there. I am not advertising dynojet here, but it does mean alot to me that they did respond to my email, good or bad. They bring up some good points. I would suggest all of you who have a wideband that finished poorly to write tech of that company and post their response as well.
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Good posts Dewey. The latency being slow does make sense to keep the gauge from bouncing around. I'm not too concerned with that but the 1.0 AFR off on accuracy with the PLX does scare me since I just purchased one that I haven't used yet. Some feedback from them would be nice.
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PLX has a response up on their forums: LINK
I will point out that the first post keeps changing without any "edited on/by" notification (at least twice that I know of). Earlier versions included screenshots an verbiage taking jabs at Innovate. I'm guessing they decided to be more professional in their response. |
The Innovative LM-1 also has a programmable feature to change the "averaging" of the data being read. If you just read the raw data at full speed without being averaged it bounces around too much.
I do like companies that at least respond to their customers in a professional manner. |
I've used about 5 of these units all at once on my truck and I can honestly say my results weren't the same as far as accuracy.
I use the FAST unit because it's easy to use and portable, it was within .2 of all the other 4 units. I'm not sure what hidden variables they threw in their test, but I've seen most of these units to be accurate enough and within .2 of each other that my decision came down to ease of use. The FAST unit has it imo. btw, we're a PLX dealer if anyone is interested. check out their site, www.plxdevices.com they have some pretty neat gauges! just my opinion based on a real world test, allen |
Where do you mount those sensors at Allen?
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Originally Posted by dewmanshu
Where do you mount those sensors at Allen?
The readings may be different before and after the cats with old cat converters, but mine were somewhat new. Also, I'm sure on high HP vehicles that are turbocharged, before or after the cat would make a difference, but not on my truck, which is pretty much what most of us have, or close to. hope this helps, allen |
Very interesting article.
I'm impressed with the response that DynoJet gave. If it were me, I probably would have ignored that and blown it off as a bitchy keyboard warrior. I think that alone would be some persuasion for me. I like the sounds of thier what's to come too. Allen, you deal DynoJet's ?? |
Dynojets are the only one we will sell. LC-1 keep :barf: on us. Have a bunch of screwed up ones. Haven't tried the FAST yet.
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Erm... I hate to get all scientifically pissy but that test is essentially meaningless -- it's an advertising piece except for the "ease of use" and other subjective measures... There are no controls involved at all here -- yeah, I did read about the two test gasses, but c'mon, he just held the sensor in front of the valve in a room full of room temperature air... Did he hold each sensor in exactly the same place and at the same angle? Were the sensors heated? Those two factors will make a huuge difference in an o2 sensors readings... On the latency thing, I've played with both innovative and PLX devices -- both have a sensitivity setting that helps you get useful data. Both of these settings directly control latency... were all set to the same sensitivity? The article doesn't say, but my experiences with an LM-1 and a PLX lead me to believe that they weren't. heh -- and in further reading, I see these points have already been raised... |
Dew -- you should add a link back to this thread for all the responses from the companies, etc. |
lc-1 works like a champ if they are grounded right!
they just have shitty directions. they are finiky b/c of people not gounding them right. |
I'm realy glad you e-mailed Dyno jet Dewey, I'm a huge fan of their wide band. I have used mine with no problems sence I got my STS kit over three years ago, after I read this ardical I was very disapointed too.
BTW I thought you knew about the sensitivity, I lowered mine until the gauge move too much and then backed it off some.... |
Originally Posted by TurboBerserker
Dew -- you should add a link back to this thread for all the responses from the companies, etc.
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Originally Posted by bluecajun5.3
lc-1 works like a champ if they are grounded right!
they just have shitty directions. they are finiky b/c of people not gounding them right. I have to agree one hunred percent. My first LC-1 crapped out on me with in 2 weeks of hooking it up. I tried to hook it up somewhat portable and grounded it through the cigarette lighter plug. Innovate warrantied it. I installed the new one permanent and grounded to the engine. I am using in place of the stock narrowband and as a wideband w/ gauge in my DD. Been working great since October. Great find on the article. I dunno bout those tests either. Most magazine articles are just propaganda anyway. |
Back from the dead...
I learned today by someone that was at the test that the "shootout" was sponsored by Innovate... Hardly an unbiased test. I was told in not-so-many-words to take the results with a grain of salt and not to worry about my PLX's lower score. Were I able to go back to my PLX purchase, I would have spent a little bit more on an NGK AFX controller and purchased an NTK sensor instead of the Bosch that most of the others run. :nod: |
Really shitty, i'd really like to see innovative's "marketing" response to them sponsoring that. Unfortunately, but fortunately as well...the ease of the setup shoud be considred as well. You shouldn't have to go out of your way to wire these things. It's not rocket science, eerrr shouldn't be anyway.
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Originally Posted by dewmanshu
You shouldn't have to go out of your way to wire these things. It's not rocket science, eerrr shouldn't be anyway.
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