Its here!! TVS2650
Nov 29, 2016 | 07:59 AM
#121
TECH Junkie
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,309
Likes: 265
From: Arlington, TX
That sucks to have done that and not even track it.
Nov 29, 2016 | 08:47 AM
#122
Thread Starter
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From: South Shore, MA
Yea that thing was an engine dyno queen... i always struggled with that.
And as far as the 2650 making more power... yes larger should make more. But this was stock down to the 92mm throttle body having to push fairly high boost on a stock motor. It spun 18k RPM in a a platform that is built for 22k plus.
What is impressive here is what the hellcat is able to do with a blower swap (no the stock 2.4 cant touch these numbers on a stock motor without completely coming apart), and what this blower is able to do without breaking a sweat. The actual power number is cool, but its a very far cry from outstanding. I believe the outstanding numbers are coming. They won't come without their challenges though. This thing isn't magic.
And as far as the 2650 making more power... yes larger should make more. But this was stock down to the 92mm throttle body having to push fairly high boost on a stock motor. It spun 18k RPM in a a platform that is built for 22k plus.
What is impressive here is what the hellcat is able to do with a blower swap (no the stock 2.4 cant touch these numbers on a stock motor without completely coming apart), and what this blower is able to do without breaking a sweat. The actual power number is cool, but its a very far cry from outstanding. I believe the outstanding numbers are coming. They won't come without their challenges though. This thing isn't magic.
Nov 29, 2016 | 09:43 AM
#123
Staging Lane
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 82
Likes: 10
Yea that thing was an engine dyno queen... i always struggled with that.
And as far as the 2650 making more power... yes larger should make more. But this was stock down to the 92mm throttle body having to push fairly high boost on a stock motor. It spun 18k RPM in a a platform that is built for 22k plus.
What is impressive here is what the hellcat is able to do with a blower swap (no the stock 2.4 cant touch these numbers on a stock motor without completely coming apart), and what this blower is able to do without breaking a sweat. The actual power number is cool, but its a very far cry from outstanding. I believe the outstanding numbers are coming. They won't come without their challenges though. This thing isn't magic.
And as far as the 2650 making more power... yes larger should make more. But this was stock down to the 92mm throttle body having to push fairly high boost on a stock motor. It spun 18k RPM in a a platform that is built for 22k plus.
What is impressive here is what the hellcat is able to do with a blower swap (no the stock 2.4 cant touch these numbers on a stock motor without completely coming apart), and what this blower is able to do without breaking a sweat. The actual power number is cool, but its a very far cry from outstanding. I believe the outstanding numbers are coming. They won't come without their challenges though. This thing isn't magic.
Oh it's magic alright! HAHA.
Should have some track times this weekend.
Nov 29, 2016 | 09:44 AM
#124
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,282
Likes: 438
From: Huntsville, AL
I dont suppose they said what boost the TVS2650 test was at did they? Lets figure it out!
So just for fun, the stock hellcat blower is 2.4L and according to the internet stock boost is around 11psi and it is rated at 707hp, so lets just take that for what its worth.
Lets say peak power is at 6000rpm, my math says a TVS-like blower of the same size will need about 81HP to drive. If the blower was 100% efficient it would still require 58HP to drive. This is a direct loss from the crankshaft. This is roughly 1128CFM worth of airflow at that blower size to make that boost on that size engine and 84lb/min, which sounds about right going by the 10lb/min per 100hp rule of thumb.
Alright so you want to go from 707hp to 1007hp so you need roughly 42% more oxygen plus some extra to deal with the higher power required from the larger blower. Lets start with 84lb/min and increase it 45% to get started, thats 122lb/min. To do that, the blower needs to move about 1650CFM. This is assuming 75F inlet air.
I dont know the exact specs on the TVS2650, but lets say its really freaking good, like 95% volumetric efficieny to the inlet and 85% adiabatic efficient after the rotors. Lets also say they didnt use an intercooler on the test and they did it on methanol or something so you dont have a pressure loss with the intercooler. These are very, very generous assumptions.
For a 2650cc blower to move that much air at 6000rpm (engine), it needs to spin at about 20,500rpm (blower) and will make approximately 25psi of boost on a modified engine. The drive power at this level is also 224HP, and they said it was a "stock engine" (yea right) so we can assume real boost would be higher, which increase the drive power even more. 25psi is based on a 92% VE engine, which is pretty typical for a modified LS. So just for good measure, lets say they needed 1700CFM, that would be about 27psi of boost at 21,070rpm and require 240HP to drive (100% efficient number is 198HP).
Basically my conclusion is they are pushing this blower really freaking hard to do that on a "stock" engine, so I wouldnt expect much more out of it without heavily modifying the engine to reduce boost (drive power).
So just for fun, the stock hellcat blower is 2.4L and according to the internet stock boost is around 11psi and it is rated at 707hp, so lets just take that for what its worth.
Lets say peak power is at 6000rpm, my math says a TVS-like blower of the same size will need about 81HP to drive. If the blower was 100% efficient it would still require 58HP to drive. This is a direct loss from the crankshaft. This is roughly 1128CFM worth of airflow at that blower size to make that boost on that size engine and 84lb/min, which sounds about right going by the 10lb/min per 100hp rule of thumb.
Alright so you want to go from 707hp to 1007hp so you need roughly 42% more oxygen plus some extra to deal with the higher power required from the larger blower. Lets start with 84lb/min and increase it 45% to get started, thats 122lb/min. To do that, the blower needs to move about 1650CFM. This is assuming 75F inlet air.
I dont know the exact specs on the TVS2650, but lets say its really freaking good, like 95% volumetric efficieny to the inlet and 85% adiabatic efficient after the rotors. Lets also say they didnt use an intercooler on the test and they did it on methanol or something so you dont have a pressure loss with the intercooler. These are very, very generous assumptions.
For a 2650cc blower to move that much air at 6000rpm (engine), it needs to spin at about 20,500rpm (blower) and will make approximately 25psi of boost on a modified engine. The drive power at this level is also 224HP, and they said it was a "stock engine" (yea right) so we can assume real boost would be higher, which increase the drive power even more. 25psi is based on a 92% VE engine, which is pretty typical for a modified LS. So just for good measure, lets say they needed 1700CFM, that would be about 27psi of boost at 21,070rpm and require 240HP to drive (100% efficient number is 198HP).
Basically my conclusion is they are pushing this blower really freaking hard to do that on a "stock" engine, so I wouldnt expect much more out of it without heavily modifying the engine to reduce boost (drive power).
Nov 29, 2016 | 11:45 AM
#125
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From: South Shore, MA
Richard I think your math is in the ballpark, but I know for a fact its at 18k blower RPM and they saw 21PSI. Boost was dropping off due to the throttle body choking it on the top end. Also boost increases at that point get you next to nothing when the engine struggles to flow more air. The drive loss is nearly equivalent to the power you gain. They made 840 on about 17psi with less blower RPM.
Here's to hoping it is! I can't wait to see it on an engine designed to flow more air then the stock hellcat!
Here's to hoping it is! I can't wait to see it on an engine designed to flow more air then the stock hellcat!
Nov 29, 2016 | 04:21 PM
#127
I dont suppose they said what boost the TVS2650 test was at did they? Lets figure it out!
So just for fun, the stock hellcat blower is 2.4L and according to the internet stock boost is around 11psi and it is rated at 707hp, so lets just take that for what its worth.
Lets say peak power is at 6000rpm, my math says a TVS-like blower of the same size will need about 81HP to drive. If the blower was 100% efficient it would still require 58HP to drive. This is a direct loss from the crankshaft. This is roughly 1128CFM worth of airflow at that blower size to make that boost on that size engine and 84lb/min, which sounds about right going by the 10lb/min per 100hp rule of thumb.
Alright so you want to go from 707hp to 1007hp so you need roughly 42% more oxygen plus some extra to deal with the higher power required from the larger blower. Lets start with 84lb/min and increase it 45% to get started, thats 122lb/min. To do that, the blower needs to move about 1650CFM. This is assuming 75F inlet air.
I dont know the exact specs on the TVS2650, but lets say its really freaking good, like 95% volumetric efficieny to the inlet and 85% adiabatic efficient after the rotors. Lets also say they didnt use an intercooler on the test and they did it on methanol or something so you dont have a pressure loss with the intercooler. These are very, very generous assumptions.
For a 2650cc blower to move that much air at 6000rpm (engine), it needs to spin at about 20,500rpm (blower) and will make approximately 25psi of boost on a modified engine. The drive power at this level is also 224HP, and they said it was a "stock engine" (yea right) so we can assume real boost would be higher, which increase the drive power even more. 25psi is based on a 92% VE engine, which is pretty typical for a modified LS. So just for good measure, lets say they needed 1700CFM, that would be about 27psi of boost at 21,070rpm and require 240HP to drive (100% efficient number is 198HP).
Basically my conclusion is they are pushing this blower really freaking hard to do that on a "stock" engine, so I wouldnt expect much more out of it without heavily modifying the engine to reduce boost (drive power).
So just for fun, the stock hellcat blower is 2.4L and according to the internet stock boost is around 11psi and it is rated at 707hp, so lets just take that for what its worth.
Lets say peak power is at 6000rpm, my math says a TVS-like blower of the same size will need about 81HP to drive. If the blower was 100% efficient it would still require 58HP to drive. This is a direct loss from the crankshaft. This is roughly 1128CFM worth of airflow at that blower size to make that boost on that size engine and 84lb/min, which sounds about right going by the 10lb/min per 100hp rule of thumb.
Alright so you want to go from 707hp to 1007hp so you need roughly 42% more oxygen plus some extra to deal with the higher power required from the larger blower. Lets start with 84lb/min and increase it 45% to get started, thats 122lb/min. To do that, the blower needs to move about 1650CFM. This is assuming 75F inlet air.
I dont know the exact specs on the TVS2650, but lets say its really freaking good, like 95% volumetric efficieny to the inlet and 85% adiabatic efficient after the rotors. Lets also say they didnt use an intercooler on the test and they did it on methanol or something so you dont have a pressure loss with the intercooler. These are very, very generous assumptions.
For a 2650cc blower to move that much air at 6000rpm (engine), it needs to spin at about 20,500rpm (blower) and will make approximately 25psi of boost on a modified engine. The drive power at this level is also 224HP, and they said it was a "stock engine" (yea right) so we can assume real boost would be higher, which increase the drive power even more. 25psi is based on a 92% VE engine, which is pretty typical for a modified LS. So just for good measure, lets say they needed 1700CFM, that would be about 27psi of boost at 21,070rpm and require 240HP to drive (100% efficient number is 198HP).
Basically my conclusion is they are pushing this blower really freaking hard to do that on a "stock" engine, so I wouldnt expect much more out of it without heavily modifying the engine to reduce boost (drive power).
