Whipple tuning defeat question?
02-09-2004, 02:38 PM
#11
Originally Posted by Ryan23silverado
Ranwalk you can reroute those vacuum lines around the bypass solenoid if you wanted and boost would no longer be blown off (until 4.5psi with the electric kits) and it makes a Wicked cool noise. It sounds like the engine is running a giant roots blower 
Ryan
Ryan
02-09-2004, 05:24 PM
#12
Well I have a new problem with the whipple now....on a test run at 5000 rpm's something inside it made a loud slapping noise and it locked up. Whipple said it would take 4-6 weeks to repair it. When I get it off I'm going to see how the bypass works. Looked at a picture of the bottom side and my guess is it has a mechanical diaphram/regulator for controlling boost thru the recycle. The selonoid has a lever connected that can pull it open to dump the boost. Being that it is a positive displacement compressor it almost has to work that way. Will have it off in few days, will know for sure then.
02-09-2004, 11:26 PM
#13
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anybody figured out how to rig up the bypass on the newer electronic solenoid whipples so they will function right without the whipple computer? can you just use the bypass system off the older whipples? i got a set of 42 lb. injectors and ls1edit ready to install and i REALLY wanted to completely remove the piggyback computer crap. 
02-10-2004, 02:38 AM
#14
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Originally Posted by parish8
i have experience with exactly what you are trying to do. it is simple.
leave everything hooked up except for the aux injectors, just unplug them. the whipple computer will still pull some boost and flash that light when it thinks there is a problem and on my truck it didn't notice the injectors were unpluged. then put in some big injectors and tune your a/f ratio with edit.
i see no reason to get rid of the whipple safe guards, i had my light come on several times, it is bright and definately draws your attention. one time it was just an o2 that was going bad so it didn't save the motor but it did let me know there was a problem, the other time i was actualy droping fuel presure. i was at 8psi on a 6.0 with the stock fuel pump. my fuel presure was droping to about 45psi at the shifts and turned on the light and pulled boost.
when it goes into the reduced boost mode i had an 8psi pully on there and it pulled the boost back to 2-3psi. whipples aux injector idea does seem a little silly but the boost pulling feature seems like a great idea to me
something to keep in mind is whipple made a few changes thru the years, so some of the advice you get may not be acurate for your set up.
leave everything hooked up except for the aux injectors, just unplug them. the whipple computer will still pull some boost and flash that light when it thinks there is a problem and on my truck it didn't notice the injectors were unpluged. then put in some big injectors and tune your a/f ratio with edit.
i see no reason to get rid of the whipple safe guards, i had my light come on several times, it is bright and definately draws your attention. one time it was just an o2 that was going bad so it didn't save the motor but it did let me know there was a problem, the other time i was actualy droping fuel presure. i was at 8psi on a 6.0 with the stock fuel pump. my fuel presure was droping to about 45psi at the shifts and turned on the light and pulled boost.
when it goes into the reduced boost mode i had an 8psi pully on there and it pulled the boost back to 2-3psi. whipples aux injector idea does seem a little silly but the boost pulling feature seems like a great idea to me
something to keep in mind is whipple made a few changes thru the years, so some of the advice you get may not be acurate for your set up.
02-10-2004, 06:49 AM
#15
i dont think the whipple sends any new signals to the pcm, it just monitors some of the sensors.
the problem with the stock set up is it runs out of injector. it can read the air and will try and add fuel but the injectors are maxed so that is when the whipple set up kicks in.
if you have large enuff injectors then the computer will read the airflow and add the right amount of fuel. you need edit though so you can adjust the power enrichment because you will want to me richer than the factory was shooting for.
the problem with the stock set up is it runs out of injector. it can read the air and will try and add fuel but the injectors are maxed so that is when the whipple set up kicks in.
if you have large enuff injectors then the computer will read the airflow and add the right amount of fuel. you need edit though so you can adjust the power enrichment because you will want to me richer than the factory was shooting for.
02-10-2004, 01:57 PM
#16
Hey etc, the Whipple computer is somewhat of a mystery box. I know on the older heat probe setup it would modify the coolant temp. signal to the pcm so that it would pull timing under wide open throttle (some say they could see the temp. gauge on the instrument cluster not function properly because of this)
However, on the newer setups, the whipple mystery box does not intercept any signals from sensors to modify them back to the pcm. So, if you remove it, considering you have enough fuel, nothing will change other than the fact that you now will have no "safety features" anymore since the whipple cannot read what is going on. The only real safety feature on there is the ability for it to read the O2 sensors which if they go lean will show a lack of fuel and it will blow off all but 2psi of boost untill you let off the throttle.
On the single belt setups, there is a way to modify the electric solenoid on the Whipple to still function without using the whipple computer. It would take some knowhow though. Just thinking, I came up with a wiring idea where you wire up the solenoid to a relay that kicks on at a certain TPS (throttle position sensor) reading. Stock the solenoid holds the bypass closed at 70% In theory, you could set this relay to activate the solenoid at any TPS -full boost at 50% throttle
ETC I think I will just answer any questions you have in this post since it help others to find info. by searching these posts whereas you cannot search pm's.
1. The pcm cannot increase fuel flow over the fuel rail itself i.e. the actual fuel pump and fuel pressure regulator are what will determine that. However when you change injectors you can tell the pcm that the flow rate going accross the injectors is more or less i.e. the smaller the IFR number the richer your ltrims will be (rich lt = negative #s) the higher the IFR number the leaner your ltrims will be (lean lt = positive #s). Fuel flow into the combustion chamber is determined by the length of time the injector is open, the injector pulse width measured in milliseconds. The O2 sensors are used in "closed loop" to make your engine run at 14.7 a/f regardless of ltrim readouts. (closed loop is normal operating/driving open loop is initial cold startup/wide open throttle) I'll explain how to tune your IFR using ltrims and STOCK ve (volumetric efficiency) tables in the next post. I want to find how I explained it before so I can just cut and paste it here 
2. The numbers you should be looking for in ltrims in theory should be Zero all the time. However, the numbers you will want to see since no one has an exact grasp on VE tables calculations which are the basis for the entire engine operation, should be on average around zero-negative three. At WOT they should also be zero. To explain some on the VE stuff I stated... Whenever you change how the air comes into/out of the engine the volumetric efficiency changes. The ltrims are calculated off of the VE tables which is divided into several areas of engine opperation. These ares of opperation in the VE table are often times not exact when mods are done to the engine. This explains why your ltrims will not be Zero 100% of the time. Ltrims are still an excellent way to tune for you Injector Flow Rate though. DO NOT CHANGE YOUR VE TABLE UNLESS YOU HAVE FIGURED OUT SOMETHING THAT WE ALL HAVE NOT. Though they may not be 100% accurate it will get you very close to where you need to be with your fuel tuning.
3. etc, are you saying your intake manifold? I would stay stock with that unless you were doing some intercooler setup that necessetates (sp?) doing that. It is fairly time consuming to do, and even the LS6 intake manifold only flows a little more than the trucks.
However, on the newer setups, the whipple mystery box does not intercept any signals from sensors to modify them back to the pcm. So, if you remove it, considering you have enough fuel, nothing will change other than the fact that you now will have no "safety features" anymore since the whipple cannot read what is going on. The only real safety feature on there is the ability for it to read the O2 sensors which if they go lean will show a lack of fuel and it will blow off all but 2psi of boost untill you let off the throttle.
On the single belt setups, there is a way to modify the electric solenoid on the Whipple to still function without using the whipple computer. It would take some knowhow though. Just thinking, I came up with a wiring idea where you wire up the solenoid to a relay that kicks on at a certain TPS (throttle position sensor) reading. Stock the solenoid holds the bypass closed at 70% In theory, you could set this relay to activate the solenoid at any TPS -full boost at 50% throttle
ETC I think I will just answer any questions you have in this post since it help others to find info. by searching these posts whereas you cannot search pm's.
Originally Posted by etc
what does the pcm use to increase fuel flow ? strictly o2's ?. apparently you did it, so i guess the pcm can compensate for the large difference in fuel requirements from no boost to boost ? what #'s should i be looking for in ltft ? any thing else i need to know before i start this ? also is there any reason to change the intake with this mild setup ? been having a few problems with the stock setup [ losing power between 3-4k, setting dtc, low o2, when w/o too long] hoping this will cure those.
2. The numbers you should be looking for in ltrims in theory should be Zero all the time. However, the numbers you will want to see since no one has an exact grasp on VE tables calculations which are the basis for the entire engine operation, should be on average around zero-negative three. At WOT they should also be zero. To explain some on the VE stuff I stated... Whenever you change how the air comes into/out of the engine the volumetric efficiency changes. The ltrims are calculated off of the VE tables which is divided into several areas of engine opperation. These ares of opperation in the VE table are often times not exact when mods are done to the engine. This explains why your ltrims will not be Zero 100% of the time. Ltrims are still an excellent way to tune for you Injector Flow Rate though. DO NOT CHANGE YOUR VE TABLE UNLESS YOU HAVE FIGURED OUT SOMETHING THAT WE ALL HAVE NOT. Though they may not be 100% accurate it will get you very close to where you need to be with your fuel tuning.
3. etc, are you saying your intake manifold? I would stay stock with that unless you were doing some intercooler setup that necessetates (sp?) doing that. It is fairly time consuming to do, and even the LS6 intake manifold only flows a little more than the trucks.
02-11-2004, 01:03 AM
#17
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Hey Ryan, ok, while these ltrims should be at 0 to -3 (this means the truck is running slightly rich right?), is this at idle while warmed up (or when the engine is cold?) or is this at a certain rpm, or is this at wide open throttle. I'd like to check mine with my Predator
02-11-2004, 01:47 PM
#18
It should be in closed loop (close to normal operating temp just to be sure) and then just take a sampling of what your ltrims look like since you are using Predator. It is normally easiest to log a run using AutoTap, Efilive, etc. and put it into Excel and average the two banks. But just by looking you should get a fair idea of how well things are dialed in.
Don't crash while staring at the Predator
Don't crash while staring at the Predator
02-11-2004, 02:00 PM
#19
Okay here is what I said in another post about using L-trims to tune for Injector Flow Rate.
"YES hohl seems to know what he is talking about. When you mod an engine, the Volumetric Efficiency changes. The VE tables affect L-trim readouts. For example, your l-trims could be perfect while in the VE cells of 5 and 21, but when you are in cell 7, it could have some wierd readout of -20 on the L-trims. What hohl was saying about the mapping out of the VE table is also right. Someone on this forum discovered which VE cells are PE (Power Enrichment) cells and which ones are at cruise.
When tunning you should use your L-trims to calculate what your IFR number should be. Take a long cruise and log all of your L-trim readout. Average them and multiply it as a percentage to your existing IFR numbers. For example: if your averages for Bank1 come out to +3.2 and averages for Bank2 come out to +3.0 -->avg. those = +3.1, so to richen up the mixture, multiply the IFR table by 96.9% (this will yield a smaller number in the IFR table than when you started) The lower the number in the IFR cells, the richer the engine will run.
If you have messed up VE cell values, then it will affect the L-trim readouts, affecting the IFR number, which will mess with engine performance. Use the stock settings on the VE tables! Even with my pretty big mods, only one cell is giving me troubles in the VE. I see this when I let off the throttle after giving it lots of gas, but not enough to jump into PE. The L-trims when I am in that VE cell go to something like +20. I disregard any L-trim readings in that VE cell if I am tuning for IFR."
I hope some of this made sense.
Ryan
"YES hohl seems to know what he is talking about. When you mod an engine, the Volumetric Efficiency changes. The VE tables affect L-trim readouts. For example, your l-trims could be perfect while in the VE cells of 5 and 21, but when you are in cell 7, it could have some wierd readout of -20 on the L-trims. What hohl was saying about the mapping out of the VE table is also right. Someone on this forum discovered which VE cells are PE (Power Enrichment) cells and which ones are at cruise.
When tunning you should use your L-trims to calculate what your IFR number should be. Take a long cruise and log all of your L-trim readout. Average them and multiply it as a percentage to your existing IFR numbers. For example: if your averages for Bank1 come out to +3.2 and averages for Bank2 come out to +3.0 -->avg. those = +3.1, so to richen up the mixture, multiply the IFR table by 96.9% (this will yield a smaller number in the IFR table than when you started) The lower the number in the IFR cells, the richer the engine will run.
If you have messed up VE cell values, then it will affect the L-trim readouts, affecting the IFR number, which will mess with engine performance. Use the stock settings on the VE tables! Even with my pretty big mods, only one cell is giving me troubles in the VE. I see this when I let off the throttle after giving it lots of gas, but not enough to jump into PE. The L-trims when I am in that VE cell go to something like +20. I disregard any L-trim readings in that VE cell if I am tuning for IFR."
I hope some of this made sense.
Ryan
02-11-2004, 08:46 PM
#20
Even more bad news on the whipple...looks like a chunk of what ever broke in the whipple got down the intake and probably on top of a piston. The motor is making a loud tapping noise. Not good!
More theory: I have looked some at the LS1edit files and the only things I see that the whipple programmer changed is the speed limiter (255), shift points, and shift firmness. I don't see any changes in the main VE, timing, IFR, or PE versus rpm. It also is running on the low octane table because of detonation.
Two functions intercepted with wiring are both front O2 sensors and the MAF sensor. Functions that are tapped are the IAT, engine temp, crank shaft postion, and ignition power. By unplugging the 2 aux. injectors and at WOT it still goes pig rich until it runs out of factory injectors, my belief is the whipple computer is modifying the signals to the PCM. I think it is mostly doing it from the O2 sensors and is doing a poor job because they are not wideband sensors.
More theory: I have looked some at the LS1edit files and the only things I see that the whipple programmer changed is the speed limiter (255), shift points, and shift firmness. I don't see any changes in the main VE, timing, IFR, or PE versus rpm. It also is running on the low octane table because of detonation.
Two functions intercepted with wiring are both front O2 sensors and the MAF sensor. Functions that are tapped are the IAT, engine temp, crank shaft postion, and ignition power. By unplugging the 2 aux. injectors and at WOT it still goes pig rich until it runs out of factory injectors, my belief is the whipple computer is modifying the signals to the PCM. I think it is mostly doing it from the O2 sensors and is doing a poor job because they are not wideband sensors.