problem when in drive with 4l80
01-04-2012, 07:19 PM
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problem when in drive with 4l80
ive swapped a 4l80 into my 08 gmc. the truck drives fine while in overdrive and even when in drive cruising but when i go wot in drive it feels like the truck shifts back and forth from 1st to 2nd. the first time i got on it in drive while in 2nd at wot it felt like it missfired really bad, truck jerked hard but stayed in 2nd, never had it happen any other time. the next time i went to get on it in drive i was coming past my brother in a tunnel cutouts open. it spun when it downshifted to 1st i pedaled it got back in it. shifted second then hit rev limiter, pulled again like in 2nd gear then hit rev limiter again. he asked me why i kept pedaling it but i only did once. the only time something weird has happened is while im in drive. i ran at the track in OD with no problems but ive got a multidisc converter thats not getting used. any ideas? i put a hd2 in it drilled for medium on all otherwise its a stock 07 4l80
.
01-07-2012, 03:52 AM
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I'm pretty sure tune wise everything is alright. The tcm has got a new van vin. The first tune the speedo didn't work and with a new tune with different vin it worked. It all works good, it just has hiccups while in D vs OD. It very well could be a fluke and everything is okay but I dont want to break simmering trying it out again. I had the valve body all apart for the hd2
01-07-2012, 09:12 AM
#5
First off I just want to say I tried to reply to this thread yesterday and for some reason I did not post my reply. So lets try again! Not sure if this info will help or apply to your situation. But below is what I would look at if I felt there is a trans issue going on here. Let me see if I get what your saying here. The only time it does this is when the shifter in the D3 position and is absolutely fine in the OD position? Also this issue started after the HD-2 install? If what I'm thinking is correct then I would look at a couple of things here before digging into the trans.
The first would be to check the PRNDL switch on the outside of the trans to make sure its adjusted correctly along with the shifter cable. Also I would verify when this happens with a scan tool with transmission data to see what the computer is commanding the solenoids to do when this happens. Keep in mind that in second gear both shift solenoids are off and in first the 1-2 solenoid is on. Depending on the scan tool they might call this the "A" solenoid and the 2-3 solenoid might be referred to as the "B" solenoid. We want to see if the "A" solenoid is energized.
If the solenoid data seems correct and this issue is still present then it will be time to dig into the shift kit install. Keep in mind what you are describing, if what I read was true, it sounds like you might have a cross leak. Or internal damage to the intermediate sprag or clutch inside the transmission providing 2nd gear is what the computer is commanding. With the added line pressure or power when going WOT the condition is more noticeable. You could even have an issue with a weak spring behind one of the shift valves. Sonnax does sell a kit for replacement springs. So keep that in mind as you start digging into this thing.
If the issue is fluid related for some reason the fluid circuit could be dumping into another circuit when it shouldn't or keeping a shift valve from staying in its correct position. This would describe the back and forth between the two gears. I would look at the shift solenoids first to make sure that you did not damage one. I have seen solenoids get messed up and work fine under low fluid conditions and then leak a bit more with increased pressure. There are two parts of a solenoid when its assembled from the factory. The electrical portion and then the snout that would be the mechanical site of things. Below is a solenoid from a 60E but where I have pointed to is how the shift solenoids are held together. If its loose in this area this could be an easy fix for you. See below.
If all this looks good I would go over your shift kit install. Check to make sure that all the bolts are tight and are torqued correctly. I like to use 100 inlbs for these size bolts. Make sure that you did all the steps in the shift kit directions correctly and that you did not create any issues when doing your install. Make sure to check the rear band servo as well to make sure that you did not cut one of the seals on the 1-2 accumulator.
The next thing to look at is the gasket impressions for both the valve body and case side of the gaskets. You should see the where the gasket paper is compressed and it should be fairly consistent. If the impression goes away in some areas you need to figure out why and this could be your leak. I always flat sand my housing surfaces with a sand stone before assembly or even cleaning parts for that matter.
I know the latest transgo kits use a 3 layered plate. IMO its easy to create an issue when drilling the holes in these plates. I feel what happens is as you go through the plate you create a bur between the plates. If this is the case here there are a couple of aluminum slugs that they use to retain the three plates together. Remove these slugs and be careful not to mix up the plates. Marking the valve body side and the case side before starting might be a good idea.
Once you get the plates apart use a drill bit that is larger than the hole you drilled to deburr the plate. Then go to the hardware store and get your self some soft aluminum rod stock that is close to the holes that were originally plugged. Cut yourself some small slugs so you can re-peen the slugs so the plates stay together. Make sure to use a solid surface like a vise to do this. Also once the plates are together make sure that the slugs are not going to create a cross leak because they are to high. In some cases its not an issue so just check where they are going to end up and make your decision from there. I guess you could try to reassemble the valve body without installing the slugs but I'm not sure if you can get all three plates lined up correctly. You will have to check the alignment holes to see if its even possible.
If you really do not find anything that could have caused your issue, you could try another valve body. You might decide that the issue in internal to the trans and at which point it will be time for you to remove the trans. As I mentioned in the first part of this post you need to determine where the issue is before chasing your tail here. If you feel that the issue started after the shift kit install that is the first place to start. I know this is a lot of info but I hope it helps you get it fixed. Best of luck. Vince
The first would be to check the PRNDL switch on the outside of the trans to make sure its adjusted correctly along with the shifter cable. Also I would verify when this happens with a scan tool with transmission data to see what the computer is commanding the solenoids to do when this happens. Keep in mind that in second gear both shift solenoids are off and in first the 1-2 solenoid is on. Depending on the scan tool they might call this the "A" solenoid and the 2-3 solenoid might be referred to as the "B" solenoid. We want to see if the "A" solenoid is energized.
If the solenoid data seems correct and this issue is still present then it will be time to dig into the shift kit install. Keep in mind what you are describing, if what I read was true, it sounds like you might have a cross leak. Or internal damage to the intermediate sprag or clutch inside the transmission providing 2nd gear is what the computer is commanding. With the added line pressure or power when going WOT the condition is more noticeable. You could even have an issue with a weak spring behind one of the shift valves. Sonnax does sell a kit for replacement springs. So keep that in mind as you start digging into this thing.
If the issue is fluid related for some reason the fluid circuit could be dumping into another circuit when it shouldn't or keeping a shift valve from staying in its correct position. This would describe the back and forth between the two gears. I would look at the shift solenoids first to make sure that you did not damage one. I have seen solenoids get messed up and work fine under low fluid conditions and then leak a bit more with increased pressure. There are two parts of a solenoid when its assembled from the factory. The electrical portion and then the snout that would be the mechanical site of things. Below is a solenoid from a 60E but where I have pointed to is how the shift solenoids are held together. If its loose in this area this could be an easy fix for you. See below.
If all this looks good I would go over your shift kit install. Check to make sure that all the bolts are tight and are torqued correctly. I like to use 100 inlbs for these size bolts. Make sure that you did all the steps in the shift kit directions correctly and that you did not create any issues when doing your install. Make sure to check the rear band servo as well to make sure that you did not cut one of the seals on the 1-2 accumulator.
The next thing to look at is the gasket impressions for both the valve body and case side of the gaskets. You should see the where the gasket paper is compressed and it should be fairly consistent. If the impression goes away in some areas you need to figure out why and this could be your leak. I always flat sand my housing surfaces with a sand stone before assembly or even cleaning parts for that matter.
I know the latest transgo kits use a 3 layered plate. IMO its easy to create an issue when drilling the holes in these plates. I feel what happens is as you go through the plate you create a bur between the plates. If this is the case here there are a couple of aluminum slugs that they use to retain the three plates together. Remove these slugs and be careful not to mix up the plates. Marking the valve body side and the case side before starting might be a good idea.
Once you get the plates apart use a drill bit that is larger than the hole you drilled to deburr the plate. Then go to the hardware store and get your self some soft aluminum rod stock that is close to the holes that were originally plugged. Cut yourself some small slugs so you can re-peen the slugs so the plates stay together. Make sure to use a solid surface like a vise to do this. Also once the plates are together make sure that the slugs are not going to create a cross leak because they are to high. In some cases its not an issue so just check where they are going to end up and make your decision from there. I guess you could try to reassemble the valve body without installing the slugs but I'm not sure if you can get all three plates lined up correctly. You will have to check the alignment holes to see if its even possible.
If you really do not find anything that could have caused your issue, you could try another valve body. You might decide that the issue in internal to the trans and at which point it will be time for you to remove the trans. As I mentioned in the first part of this post you need to determine where the issue is before chasing your tail here. If you feel that the issue started after the shift kit install that is the first place to start. I know this is a lot of info but I hope it helps you get it fixed. Best of luck. Vince
01-07-2012, 04:54 PM
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Vince, Wow! thank you for the reply! you are correct it has only done this while in the D3 position. The trans is a 2007 with 30k miles on it out of what was a really clean 2500 van. inside was immaculate so im pretty confident it never saw abuse and would hope the internals in that sense are good. I never drove the truck before the hd2. i installed that when i put the trans in. so it is hard to say. when i installed the hd2 i did everything to middle settings. middle size holes, middle springs. i did not put the internal springs in(i forget what they are called but the ones that there are a lot of the same size) and i also did not do the pump mods. the hack that pulled the trans out did mess up the connector so it has a new harness in it if that could have anything to do with it. im going to have to see if i can get a scanner to hook up and drive around some. do you forsee any catastrophic failure from this thing doing what its doing while checking to see what the scanner shows? like i said it happened to me twice and i havent put it in d3 again since (its not the best to drag in D4 right? different things are happening in the trans correct?) if it is a leak in the valve body from the plate id really lean towards the burr issue you speak of. I noticed after drilling the plates pushed apart some. i thought i got them back flat with a little hand work but this may be my problem. another thing is my valvebody was different in the one corner then the picture in the instructions. i may have a picture of this. but the gasket did not match the VB but also the trans side of things was not a match to the plate/gasket also. i forget the exact shape and coverage but from looking at it i thought it was not an issue.
as far as the shift select lever and all that. i put it on there just how it was off of the 60e. how do you check alignment? my gauge cluster and all other gears seem to work fine. i put it in 1st it stays there 2nd and so on. if im following your correctly and the computer was actually commanding this goofy shift id see it flicker the 1-2 shift solenoid aka "a"
out of curiosity of how things work what exactly is happening different on 1st and 2nd while in D3 vs D4? it striked me as being odd that it works fine while in D4 the biggest thing i know is i cant lock the converter in 3rd while in D4 at the track. one other side note and this could be the tune but i feel as though the 1-2 shift is nice and crisp/firm at wot but the 2-3 is really weak. driving on the street cruising you dont even feel the shifts much but this is maybe because of the converter? thank you very much i appreciate the help
as far as the shift select lever and all that. i put it on there just how it was off of the 60e. how do you check alignment? my gauge cluster and all other gears seem to work fine. i put it in 1st it stays there 2nd and so on. if im following your correctly and the computer was actually commanding this goofy shift id see it flicker the 1-2 shift solenoid aka "a"
out of curiosity of how things work what exactly is happening different on 1st and 2nd while in D3 vs D4? it striked me as being odd that it works fine while in D4 the biggest thing i know is i cant lock the converter in 3rd while in D4 at the track. one other side note and this could be the tune but i feel as though the 1-2 shift is nice and crisp/firm at wot but the 2-3 is really weak. driving on the street cruising you dont even feel the shifts much but this is maybe because of the converter? thank you very much i appreciate the help
01-08-2012, 07:11 AM
#7
Because of the length of your post and also to make it clear as to what I'm answering here I posted in your reply in Bold blue print. See below.
I hope this answers some of your questions and helps most importantly. The first thing to do is figure out which direction you should go. From there you can work on the tune to get this thing to work the way you want it. Have you had any tuning done on this project yet? If not I guess your issues could be in the tune and might be something to consider looking into. HTH Vince
Vince, Wow! thank you for the reply! you are correct it has only done this while in the D3 position. The trans is a 2007 with 30k miles on it out of what was a really clean 2500 van. inside was immaculate so im pretty confident it never saw abuse and would hope the internals in that sense are good. I never drove the truck before the hd2. i installed that when i put the trans in. so it is hard to say. when i installed the hd2 i did everything to middle settings. middle size holes, middle springs. i did not put the internal springs in(i forget what they are called but the ones that there are a lot of the same size) (Direct drum clutch return springs)and i also did not do the pump mods.(I would have done these) the hack that pulled the trans out did mess up the connector so it has a new harness in it if that could have anything to do with it. (As long as it was the same harness and you plugged everything in you should be fine.) im going to have to see if i can get a scanner to hook up and drive around some. do you forsee any catastrophic failure from this thing doing what its doing while checking to see what the scanner shows?(Hard to tell.) like i said it happened to me twice and i havent put it in d3 again since (its not the best to drag in D4 right? different things are happening in the trans correct?)(I would only recommend dragging in the D3 position. Also yes in the D3 position the over run clutch comes on to aid the OD one way clutch. I do not see this being your issue I think it might have something to do with the position of the manual valve in the D3 range. Keep in mind the fluid flow changes some and if the plate has a leak this could be causing your issue.) if it is a leak in the valve body from the plate id really lean towards the burr issue you speak of. I noticed after drilling the plates pushed apart some. i thought i got them back flat with a little hand work but this may be my problem. another thing is my valvebody was different in the one corner then the picture in the instructions. i may have a picture of this. but the gasket did not match the VB but also the trans side of things was not a match to the plate/gasket also. i forget the exact shape and coverage but from looking at it i thought it was not an issue. (The directions for this kit are probably showing you the early valve body casting and the gaskets should work for both. )
as far as the shift select lever and all that. i put it on there just how it was off of the 60e. how do you check alignment? (The early switches had alignment marks however the late ones have a break away alignment tool that you remove once the switch is installed. As long as with a scanner the input signals to the computer look right I would think that your ok. Then again you need to look at this as well when the condition happens. Depending on how the cable is routed it might be moving things around under load.)my gauge cluster and all other gears seem to work fine. i put it in 1st it stays there 2nd and so on. if im following your correctly and the computer was actually commanding this goofy shift id see it flicker the 1-2 shift solenoid aka "a" (Once again you will have to see what the data says when the issue happens. But yes I would think you will see the command come on and off if the computer is doing this.)
out of curiosity of how things work what exactly is happening different on 1st and 2nd while in D3 vs D4?(Answered above.) it striked me as being odd that it works fine while in D4 the biggest thing i know is i cant lock the converter in 3rd while in D4 at the track.(Depending on the computer settings this might not be possible or as you know we might have a leak in the system that under WOT its just not going to happen.) one other side note and this could be the tune but i feel as though the 1-2 shift is nice and crisp/firm at wot but the 2-3 is really weak. driving on the street cruising you dont even feel the shifts much but this is maybe because of the converter?(Yes a high stall converter is going to dampen the shift feel some depending the RPMS of when the shift happens.) thank you very much i appreciate the help
as far as the shift select lever and all that. i put it on there just how it was off of the 60e. how do you check alignment? (The early switches had alignment marks however the late ones have a break away alignment tool that you remove once the switch is installed. As long as with a scanner the input signals to the computer look right I would think that your ok. Then again you need to look at this as well when the condition happens. Depending on how the cable is routed it might be moving things around under load.)my gauge cluster and all other gears seem to work fine. i put it in 1st it stays there 2nd and so on. if im following your correctly and the computer was actually commanding this goofy shift id see it flicker the 1-2 shift solenoid aka "a" (Once again you will have to see what the data says when the issue happens. But yes I would think you will see the command come on and off if the computer is doing this.)
out of curiosity of how things work what exactly is happening different on 1st and 2nd while in D3 vs D4?(Answered above.) it striked me as being odd that it works fine while in D4 the biggest thing i know is i cant lock the converter in 3rd while in D4 at the track.(Depending on the computer settings this might not be possible or as you know we might have a leak in the system that under WOT its just not going to happen.) one other side note and this could be the tune but i feel as though the 1-2 shift is nice and crisp/firm at wot but the 2-3 is really weak. driving on the street cruising you dont even feel the shifts much but this is maybe because of the converter?(Yes a high stall converter is going to dampen the shift feel some depending the RPMS of when the shift happens.) thank you very much i appreciate the help
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01-08-2012, 11:49 AM
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vince i really appreciate you taking the time to help me out. i feel like i should be paying you for the advice! ill hook up a solus and scan it to see whats happening then go from there.
05-28-2012, 08:49 PM
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putting this back up there, im going to find out whats wrong. bad me hasnt really done anything since this. i did put it on snap on solus and the shifts all look good on there. i noticed after watching some of my videos at the track that i get what seems like a gear between 1st and 2nd. must have had to many things to pay attention to to not notice that i shifted 3 times but still only crossing the line in 3rd gear haha.
skip through the nothing bs at the begining of the video and watch my pass you can hear the shifts.
supercharged 08 GMC ATCO NJ 2/25/12 - YouTube
fast forward to today, i pulled the trans to up the stall and i dropped the pan to see what was up with this. the magnet had some metal and antisieze looking stuff around it. the fluid remaining in the bottom of the pan smelled burnt and when i pulled the bolts out of the valve body some of the fluid that came through the holes was brown instead of red. last week going to ocmd cruise we got stuck in bad traffic on the highway and trans temp hit 236. dont know if this has anything to do with the burnt smell.
skip through the nothing bs at the begining of the video and watch my pass you can hear the shifts.
supercharged 08 GMC ATCO NJ 2/25/12 - YouTube
fast forward to today, i pulled the trans to up the stall and i dropped the pan to see what was up with this. the magnet had some metal and antisieze looking stuff around it. the fluid remaining in the bottom of the pan smelled burnt and when i pulled the bolts out of the valve body some of the fluid that came through the holes was brown instead of red. last week going to ocmd cruise we got stuck in bad traffic on the highway and trans temp hit 236. dont know if this has anything to do with the burnt smell.