4x4 vs RWD for a Drag Setup
03-29-2017, 05:03 PM
#21
TECH Regular
They can. Stock48, to my knowledge has been going 9s for several years now on SBE.
My setup drove just like stock and I drove it in Houston rush hour traffic in 100+ temps with A/C blasting. I wasn't making 1000 to the wheel, but it was close. I could have driven 10k miles other than the fact I got 8 mpg.
People are so fixated on running junk pump gasoline, that in my opinion is the reason you see a lot of SBE failures.
My setup drove just like stock and I drove it in Houston rush hour traffic in 100+ temps with A/C blasting. I wasn't making 1000 to the wheel, but it was close. I could have driven 10k miles other than the fact I got 8 mpg.
People are so fixated on running junk pump gasoline, that in my opinion is the reason you see a lot of SBE failures.
Either way, to make 900 or 1000 hp on a sbe takes some skill to make it live. Stock48 knows what he is doing, and yourself. It's not something everyone can do. And is damn impressive in my mind.
03-30-2017, 02:23 AM
#23
The bottom line of this whole thread is TIME. I'll address that in a second, but first:
GM built an amazing platform with the LS design that lends itself to easily making monster power compared to other motors. Nobody can argue with that. Sure, a power number will destroy parts, however the ls is unique in that a great deal of the time most guys surpass the ability to keep it sealed up before it has the chance to break something else.
The insane popularity of the ls over the last 15 years or so reminds me of the 2JZ days when everyday higher and higher dynos numbers rolled in for what seems like for ever. Then you go to the track and that 1400 rwhp supra might run a 9 if it's lucky. This basically turned into a dyno war. Hell, I knew guys that had streetable 8 second supra's who would swap in a 6 speed just so he could put up a better number on the dyno. You could find a "dyno day" at any given shop almost every weekend down here in Houston. It it was the only thing that was bringing bragging rights. After the swap to the 6 speed...my buddy posted up a monster ******* rwhp number and everyone started nut swinging. Took it to the track and never went quicker than a 10.00. I laughed at him, but we where good friends.
Back to the "time" comment (and I can promise you Denmah recognizes what I'm about to say). You post an amazing rwhp number on a dyno with an ls with no troubles in site. Unstrap it, roll into the beams and have a heaping pile of **** under the hood in about 1300'. This is the main reason why you see the extreme power SBE guys only running to the 1/8th mile (most of them anyway). That orange/red mustang is the perfect example. At 2965 lbs that car has run well into the 4.60's in the 1/8th mile with nearly a stock long block pushing 40+ lbs. of boost and methanol for fuel. They've even admitted that a major tune change would have to be made for it go another 660' without killing itself.
So for those making comments that building a 9 second full size truck is easy and cookie cutter because all you have to do is throw down a 900-1000 rwhp number on a dyno......I hate to ruin your day, but it doesn't work quite like that. I'm sure you go post up your big number with a 3 second pull on the chassis dyno. Now go hold it to the firewall for 9 seconds and see how the world changes and check back with us.
GM built an amazing platform with the LS design that lends itself to easily making monster power compared to other motors. Nobody can argue with that. Sure, a power number will destroy parts, however the ls is unique in that a great deal of the time most guys surpass the ability to keep it sealed up before it has the chance to break something else.
The insane popularity of the ls over the last 15 years or so reminds me of the 2JZ days when everyday higher and higher dynos numbers rolled in for what seems like for ever. Then you go to the track and that 1400 rwhp supra might run a 9 if it's lucky. This basically turned into a dyno war. Hell, I knew guys that had streetable 8 second supra's who would swap in a 6 speed just so he could put up a better number on the dyno. You could find a "dyno day" at any given shop almost every weekend down here in Houston. It it was the only thing that was bringing bragging rights. After the swap to the 6 speed...my buddy posted up a monster ******* rwhp number and everyone started nut swinging. Took it to the track and never went quicker than a 10.00. I laughed at him, but we where good friends.
Back to the "time" comment (and I can promise you Denmah recognizes what I'm about to say). You post an amazing rwhp number on a dyno with an ls with no troubles in site. Unstrap it, roll into the beams and have a heaping pile of **** under the hood in about 1300'. This is the main reason why you see the extreme power SBE guys only running to the 1/8th mile (most of them anyway). That orange/red mustang is the perfect example. At 2965 lbs that car has run well into the 4.60's in the 1/8th mile with nearly a stock long block pushing 40+ lbs. of boost and methanol for fuel. They've even admitted that a major tune change would have to be made for it go another 660' without killing itself.
So for those making comments that building a 9 second full size truck is easy and cookie cutter because all you have to do is throw down a 900-1000 rwhp number on a dyno......I hate to ruin your day, but it doesn't work quite like that. I'm sure you go post up your big number with a 3 second pull on the chassis dyno. Now go hold it to the firewall for 9 seconds and see how the world changes and check back with us.
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Atomic (03-30-2017)
03-30-2017, 02:29 AM
#24
It drives me crazy when people ask for help and all you see is replys like "joe blow just made 1000 horsepower on a stock bottom end, so don't waist money on forged bottom end components, it's just not needed". It's those guys who have never actually owned/driven one further than the dyno rollers.
03-30-2017, 08:14 AM
#25
It drives me crazy when people ask for help and all you see is replys like "joe blow just made 1000 horsepower on a stock bottom end, so don't waist money on forged bottom end components, it's just not needed". It's those guys who have never actually owned/driven one further than the dyno rollers.
6 seconds in an 1/8 is very hard on a 1000rwhp engine of the common LS sizes. 9-10 seconds in a 1/4 is about 3 times as hard.
03-30-2017, 11:42 AM
#26
Bad fuel. Poor tune.
Blown06 emits a subtle underlying anger. And I feel his pain when I see these "builds"
My **** was nothing special but I drove it to every track around Houston and ran the **** out of it. Stacks of 10 second slips. Destroyed most on test n tune nights. Early on before I knew what i was doing, I was the one getting destroyed at the track. Never cared for dynos, let the trap and scales tell me the power.
Blown06 emits a subtle underlying anger. And I feel his pain when I see these "builds"
My **** was nothing special but I drove it to every track around Houston and ran the **** out of it. Stacks of 10 second slips. Destroyed most on test n tune nights. Early on before I knew what i was doing, I was the one getting destroyed at the track. Never cared for dynos, let the trap and scales tell me the power.
03-31-2017, 11:49 PM
#27
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Really interesting stuff you guys have brought up. Does it really take 1,xxx at the tires to get into the 9s in these things? At this point, it looks like from the answers that I've seen here and what I've been poking around and looking at, it seems a lot more feasible to go with a rwd setup even though awd would be a lot cooler to me.
Coming from the Corvette world, a lot of this is new to me. I'm right at the 9-second barrier now with under 600whp lol. It really puts the weight factor into perspective. I knew it'd take more but that's nuts.
Coming from the Corvette world, a lot of this is new to me. I'm right at the 9-second barrier now with under 600whp lol. It really puts the weight factor into perspective. I knew it'd take more but that's nuts.
04-02-2017, 03:32 AM
#28
Atomic makes some good points arguing in favor of the AWD set up, but what he is mostly speaking of is avoiding traction issues on the street and no prepped back woods tracks that my riding lawn mower would spin on. If the starting line is coming out of a wet ditch, he is right on the money.
If you race at a drag strip with at least a little prep, it doesn't take much to get a 2wd truck to out 60' an AWD 10 out of 10 times.
There have only been what, maybe a handful of AWD fullsize trucks that have broken that single digit barrier. Today, 9's in a 2wd truck aren't a dime a dozen, but there are quiet a few, several more going 8's and at least 3 or 4 that I know of in the 7's. I should note that while Spike has it going on, I have a hard time qualifying his truck for the sake of this discussion because it is a tube chassis truck that is very light.
For the question above about it really taking 1000 horsepower to run 9's, we should probably look at 9.90's or 9.00's because there is a monumental difference in a 4000lb truck that runs 9.90's all night vs. one that runs 9.00 - 9.teens all night. You probably don't need 1000 horsepower to go 9.90's but you're gonna need every bit of 850+. Anything that weight going quicker than 9.50's and you're gonna need 4 digit power.
If you race at a drag strip with at least a little prep, it doesn't take much to get a 2wd truck to out 60' an AWD 10 out of 10 times.
There have only been what, maybe a handful of AWD fullsize trucks that have broken that single digit barrier. Today, 9's in a 2wd truck aren't a dime a dozen, but there are quiet a few, several more going 8's and at least 3 or 4 that I know of in the 7's. I should note that while Spike has it going on, I have a hard time qualifying his truck for the sake of this discussion because it is a tube chassis truck that is very light.
For the question above about it really taking 1000 horsepower to run 9's, we should probably look at 9.90's or 9.00's because there is a monumental difference in a 4000lb truck that runs 9.90's all night vs. one that runs 9.00 - 9.teens all night. You probably don't need 1000 horsepower to go 9.90's but you're gonna need every bit of 850+. Anything that weight going quicker than 9.50's and you're gonna need 4 digit power.
04-02-2017, 07:21 AM
#29
TECH Fanatic
Atomic makes some good points arguing in favor of the AWD set up, but what he is mostly speaking of is avoiding traction issues on the street and no prepped back woods tracks that my riding lawn mower would spin on. If the starting line is coming out of a wet ditch, he is right on the money.
If you race at a drag strip with at least a little prep, it doesn't take much to get a 2wd truck to out 60' an AWD 10 out of 10 times.
There have only been what, maybe a handful of AWD fullsize trucks that have broken that single digit barrier. Today, 9's in a 2wd truck aren't a dime a dozen, but there are quiet a few, several more going 8's and at least 3 or 4 that I know of in the 7's. I should note that while Spike has it going on, I have a hard time qualifying his truck for the sake of this discussion because it is a tube chassis truck that is very light.
For the question above about it really taking 1000 horsepower to run 9's, we should probably look at 9.90's or 9.00's because there is a monumental difference in a 4000lb truck that runs 9.90's all night vs. one that runs 9.00 - 9.teens all night. You probably don't need 1000 horsepower to go 9.90's but you're gonna need every bit of 850+. Anything that weight going quicker than 9.50's and you're gonna need 4 digit power.
If you race at a drag strip with at least a little prep, it doesn't take much to get a 2wd truck to out 60' an AWD 10 out of 10 times.
There have only been what, maybe a handful of AWD fullsize trucks that have broken that single digit barrier. Today, 9's in a 2wd truck aren't a dime a dozen, but there are quiet a few, several more going 8's and at least 3 or 4 that I know of in the 7's. I should note that while Spike has it going on, I have a hard time qualifying his truck for the sake of this discussion because it is a tube chassis truck that is very light.
For the question above about it really taking 1000 horsepower to run 9's, we should probably look at 9.90's or 9.00's because there is a monumental difference in a 4000lb truck that runs 9.90's all night vs. one that runs 9.00 - 9.teens all night. You probably don't need 1000 horsepower to go 9.90's but you're gonna need every bit of 850+. Anything that weight going quicker than 9.50's and you're gonna need 4 digit power.
04-09-2017, 08:53 PM
#30
I think for an all out drag truck, 2wd for sure. Fewer slicks to buy, fewer parts to break, less weight. For a street/ strip truck 4wd is a ton of fun, but a 4wd truck does not hook like glue just because it's 4wd. You will still need limiting straps or coilovers, plus traction bars, shock setting experimenting, tire pressure experimenting, etc. There is a 1000+ rwhp truck here in CA that runs 9.6-9.7. I don't think he has ever 60ft'd faster than low 1.6's. A properly setup 4wd truck will 60ft that well on bald Pep Boys tires aired down and will consistently 60ft in the 1.4's on Hoosiers. You'll never get that consistency with a 2wd truck. All four of my tires look like this (aka bald as ****) and once I figured out the shock settings and caltracs preload I 60'd 1.64-1.65 5-6 times in a row. But then again this truck never intended to be an all out drag truck. Just something fun that could idle in traffic without attracting unwanted attention. It took me 3 trips to the track to run 10s. I'm sure it would take me another $10-15k and a year or more to run 9s. Slicks, forged motor, built trans, new injectors, $1000 turbo, dyno time, probably 2-5 trips to the track with $100 of E85 each time, etc etc etc. and that's assuming I don't break a single goddamn part. I think 9s are incredibly impressive! Anyone who has run even 11s or 10s has spent a serious goddamn amount of time underneath and all up in their truck fine tuning every ******* thing, redoing some of it, fixing leaks, chasing bugs, pulling their hair out. I'd love to see someone follow a social media recipe for a "9 sec truck" and drive it to the track and run a 9 without breaking anything in under a year when starting with a stock truck. It would make for an awesome build thread!