TECH Fanatic
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does an intank pump swap cause any fuel starvation issues? the stock pump has some kind of bucket it fills so you never run out of gas even with a low fuel level, does the replacement keep this feature? my duel intank set up will suck air if i am under 1/2 a tank and launch it hard but it does feed a ton of fuel and is prety much plug and play.
Originally Posted by parish8
thats a great question. i had an inline on my last truck and it worked great but would a swaped intank one be better? here is my question on the intank one. does an intank pump swap cause any fuel starvation issues? the stock pump has some kind of bucket it fills so you never run out of gas even with a low fuel level, does the replacement keep this feature? my duel intank set up will suck air if i am under 1/2 a tank and launch it hard but it does feed a ton of fuel and is prety much plug and play.
Ever think of putting baffles in it, you know to slow down the "slosh".
single digit dreamer
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not sure how you would do that. it is a plastic tank with a prety small hole to work out of.Originally Posted by NoChrome
Ever think of putting baffles in it, you know to slow down the "slosh".
TECH Fanatic
i guess by that you mean you cant take it apart. maybe cut into the top of the tank and slide a peice of alumninum (cant speel fer ****) with small holes in it, and seal it back up, then repete 4 or 5 times.
TECH Junkie
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i will try one more time.
at 6000rpm there is 20ms avaliable for the injector to be open before the cycle starts over. if the computer comands the injector to be open 22ms then the injector will just never close. that is called static. you no longer have any control over how much fuel you get. this doesn't mean you will instantly go lean, it just means the injector is puting out all the fuel it can.
one more time. an injector can not be open more than 100% of the time. the computer can ask it to be but once it gets to 100% then it is wide open(static) and adding duty cycle to that will do nothing.
All I know is what delphi has told me and what the guys over on ls1tech told me when I posted about it in the other link. Also if you notice red hard supras sheet goes over 100% the formula for calculating duty cycle you can also see how it will go over 100%. Originally Posted by parish8
i really dont know how to explain it any better than i have but you are missunderstanding how this all works.i will try one more time.
at 6000rpm there is 20ms avaliable for the injector to be open before the cycle starts over. if the computer comands the injector to be open 22ms then the injector will just never close. that is called static. you no longer have any control over how much fuel you get. this doesn't mean you will instantly go lean, it just means the injector is puting out all the fuel it can.
one more time. an injector can not be open more than 100% of the time. the computer can ask it to be but once it gets to 100% then it is wide open(static) and adding duty cycle to that will do nothing.
Yes, you can only flow a specific amount through a certain sized orifice but the duty cycle takes into consideration a factor of time. This is why it can be over 100%, is the actuall injector flowing more- no it is not but, it is staying open longer than it should be to accomodate the added fuel needs of the engine. The flow rate has never changed the amount of time the injector is spraying has changed. I swear to you Im not pulling this out of my *** just to post it.
Duty cycle can be over 100% because the number 100 is in relation to a value that is considered optimum not the actual amount of time the injector is open. Flow rate takes into consideration pressure and lbs/hr but it doesnt take into account fuel flowed over a period of time and duty cycle does. So in order for a smaller injector to flow past its optimum it must stay open longer than it was meant too. An example of this is a 200 gallon tank you can evacuate the water through a hose with a 3" diameter or a 3' diameter the 3 foot orifice will flow more water over less time while the 3 inch orifice will flow the same amount of water but it will take alot longer the amount of time is duty cycle, the actual amount of water per hr is the flow rating.
single digit dreamer
Quote:
Yes, you can only flow a specific amount through a certain sized orifice but the duty cycle takes into consideration a factor of time. This is why it can be over 100%, is the actuall injector flowing more- no it is not but, it is staying open longer than it should be to accomodate the added fuel needs of the engine. The flow rate has never changed the amount of time the injector is spraying has changed. I swear to you Im not pulling this out of my *** just to post it.
Duty cycle can be over 100% because the number 100 is in relation to a value that is considered optimum not the actual amount of time the injector is open. Flow rate takes into consideration pressure and lbs/hr but it doesnt take into account fuel flowed over a period of time and duty cycle does. So in order for a smaller injector to flow past its optimum it must stay open longer than it was meant too. An example of this is a 200 gallon tank you can evacuate the water through a hose with a 3" diameter or a 3' diameter the 3 foot orifice will flow more water over less time while the 3 inch orifice will flow the same amount of water but it will take alot longer the amount of time is duty cycle, the actual amount of water per hr is the flow rating.
Originally Posted by 02sierraz71_5.3
All I know is what delphi has told me and what the guys over on ls1tech told me when I posted about it in the other link. Also if you notice red hard supras sheet goes over 100% the formula for calculating duty cycle you can also see how it will go over 100%. Yes, you can only flow a specific amount through a certain sized orifice but the duty cycle takes into consideration a factor of time. This is why it can be over 100%, is the actuall injector flowing more- no it is not but, it is staying open longer than it should be to accomodate the added fuel needs of the engine. The flow rate has never changed the amount of time the injector is spraying has changed. I swear to you Im not pulling this out of my *** just to post it.
Duty cycle can be over 100% because the number 100 is in relation to a value that is considered optimum not the actual amount of time the injector is open. Flow rate takes into consideration pressure and lbs/hr but it doesnt take into account fuel flowed over a period of time and duty cycle does. So in order for a smaller injector to flow past its optimum it must stay open longer than it was meant too. An example of this is a 200 gallon tank you can evacuate the water through a hose with a 3" diameter or a 3' diameter the 3 foot orifice will flow more water over less time while the 3 inch orifice will flow the same amount of water but it will take alot longer the amount of time is duty cycle, the actual amount of water per hr is the flow rating.
, thats it, i give up. time to call in some help.TECH Apprentice
I always understood 100% duty cycle to be just that; it is open all the time, no more pulsing. Every EFI engineer I have spoken with has said the same.
Jody
Jody
TECH Junkie
Quote:
Jody
Originally Posted by camcojb
I always understood 100% duty cycle to be just that; it is open all the time, no more pulsing. Every EFI engineer I have spoken with has said the same.Jody
What he said..In fact (depending on the situation) an injector can go static, as in always open, as low as 80% duty cycle. In that the signal is not commanding the injector to be open for 20% but it happens faster then the injector can physically close. So it is always open even though its only at 80% duty cycle.
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, thats it, i give up. time to call in some help.
LOLOriginally Posted by parish8
, thats it, i give up. time to call in some help.
From a website that I used to frequent when researching...
I am not an engineer, auto tech, or an expert...but I did sleep in Holiday Inn last night.
A lot more words than you guys...but a little more easier english IMO.
Duty Cycle..
"An injector in an engine turns on and off very quickly to control the amount of fuel delivered. The amount of time an injector is turned on and delivering fuel is known as the duty cycle. This is measured as a percent, so 50% duty cycle indicates that the injector is held open and held closed for an equal amount of time. When the engine needs more fuel, the time that the injector stays on (its duty cycle) increases so that more fuel can flow into the engine. If an injector stays on all the time, it is said to be static (wide open, or 100% duty cycle). INJECTORS SHOULD NOT GO STATIC IN A RUNNING ENGINE! If an injector is static in a running engine (open 100% of the time), that injector is no longer able to control fuel delivery. It is just “along for the ride”. This could be an indication that the injector is too small for the needs of the engine. Injector duty cycle should usually not exceed 80% in a running engine at any time."
Static Flow Rate
"Manufacturers rate fuel injectors by the maximum amount of fuel that they can flow in a given amount of time. This measurement is taken with the injector on 100% of the time (100% duty cycle, or wide open) and with the fuel at a given pressure (usually 43.5 psi). For example, a 19 pound per hour (Lb./Hr.) injector flow 19 pounds of fuel in one hour at 100% duty cycle and 43.5 psi of fuel pressure. Injectors in imported vehicles are often rated in cubic centimeters per minute (cc/min) instead of pounds per hour. This is also done at 100% duty cycle."
If injectors should not exceed 80% duty cycle under operating conditions, why do manufacturers rate them at 100% duty cycle?
A test at 100% duty cycle is used to determine the maximum amount of fuel that will flow through an injector in a given time. This test is useful for determining whether an injector’s internal fuel passages were machined properly, but it does NOT check an injector’s ability to cycle on or off. It is usually NOT recommended to run an injector at more than 80% duty cycle under actual driving conditions. This 80% duty cycle operating limit is taken into account to make sure the injector will be large enough to feed the engine under ACTUAL OPERATING CONDITIONS and will not starve the engine for fuel.
***EDIT****I just realized parish already put this link up. Sorry. Well, it's in the thread now.
TECH Junkie
duty cycle=injpw*rpm/1200
on my old setup I was seeing 25-26ms at 6200 rpm
25*6200/1200=129
And Ive got logs to prove it
someone explain this too me.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-calc-idc.htm
here is a link to someone else's calculator if you doubt my math
"Many manufacturers recommend that IDC does not remain above 85-90% for extended periods. Some injectors may actually flow less above 95% IDC than below that value. Of course, if the listed IDC is greater than 100%, the fuel injector is inadequate for the application. "
on my old setup I was seeing 25-26ms at 6200 rpm
25*6200/1200=129
And Ive got logs to prove it
someone explain this too me.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-calc-idc.htm
here is a link to someone else's calculator if you doubt my math
"Many manufacturers recommend that IDC does not remain above 85-90% for extended periods. Some injectors may actually flow less above 95% IDC than below that value. Of course, if the listed IDC is greater than 100%, the fuel injector is inadequate for the application. "
single digit dreamer
Quote:
on my old setup I was seeing 25-26ms at 6200 rpm
25*6200/1200=129
And Ive got logs to prove it
someone explain this too me.
it is simple. the computer calculated that you needed 25ms worth of fuel. it comands 25ms worth of fuel. the problem is there is only ~20ms of time before the next comand for fuel comes again. so 20ms later a new comand comes for another 25ms worth of fuel. it happens over and over fast. since it is comanding another 25ms worth of fuel before the first 25ms is even done the injector just stays open(STATIC). the injector is running at 100%, thats all it can do. it is only geting 20ms worth of fuel since that is all there is time for.Originally Posted by 02sierraz71_5.3
duty cycle=injpw*rpm/1200on my old setup I was seeing 25-26ms at 6200 rpm
25*6200/1200=129
And Ive got logs to prove it
someone explain this too me.

