here is a picture of my averages and then my corrections. i havent messed with my LTFT's or anything. i figured i would start here ... what do you think?

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y261/splabida/KR.jpg

i really want to get this taken care of soon.

You need to work on the LTFT's first, that will solve most of the KR. I'm tuning SD mode right now and i don't think i'm hooking the MAf back up. Runs smoother and diffinatly has more power. Already running 2* more timing acroos the board with no KR and probably could run more.

my truck just threw a code driving to work... this is fucking great. cant wait to see what the fuck is going on now. :eyes:

Check your cats! :jest:

Seriously though, that KR is bad! I think 8* is the max too. What do your LTrims look like? Did you get the exhaust leak checked out too. That might be causing some of this.

If it makes you feel any better I'm still seeing some KR too. :(

turns out the code was a P0751 no 1st or 4th gear something or other servo thing. so i cleared it and drove back to work, and it hasnt popped back up yet. did some more logging, since its cooler out. didnt do any WOT runs though. didnt see any KR through the whole drive, maybe at most 1 or 2*.

:eek2: oh my god :eek2:
I freak if I see 4 degrees that is rediculous, the part throttle kr is not nearly as concerning as the wot kr thats where your gonna run into problems and break stuff. Is that looking at an average or max value. Ive found that paste special method for tuning out kr pulls too much timing. If I see 1-3 pull 1 degree, 4-5 pull 2, 6-7 pull 3, and so on. That will take care of it.

If your lt trims are positive add fuel threw the ve if SD or in maf table if your using it. Ive had good luck with getting all my lt's between -1 to -4 allows for more timing.
Wow just out of curiosity is that a table from a mailorder tune?

:eek2: oh my god :eek2:
I freak if I see 4 degrees that is rediculous, the part throttle kr is not nearly as concerning as the wot kr thats where your gonna run into problems and break stuff. Is that looking at an average or max value. Ive found that paste special method for tuning out kr pulls too much timing. If I see 1-3 pull 1 degree, 4-5 pull 2, 6-7 pull 3, and so on. That will take care of it.

If your lt trims are positive add fuel threw the ve if SD or in maf table if your using it. Ive had good luck with getting all my lt's between -1 to -4 allows for more timing.
Wow just out of curiosity is that a table from a mailorder tune?


that is average. and yes its a mail order tune.

You need to work on the LTFT's first, that will solve most of the KR. I'm tuning SD mode right now and i don't think i'm hooking the MAf back up. Runs smoother and diffinatly has more power. Already running 2* more timing acroos the board with no KR and probably could run more.


Is this only good for blown applications. would it make is difference is air is being pulled through rather than pushed through like you turbo. I am thinking there is no difference.

my TC does not seem to be locking... ugh... i'll check fluids tomorrow so i can get a cold and hot measurement.

i really dont want to drop this mother again....

shifts seem wierd too. we'll see tomorrow i guess.

Is this only good for blown applications. would it make is difference is air is being pulled through rather than pushed through like you turbo. I am thinking there is no difference.
Works for N/A as well. Will probably be easier.

Onyx, what's your fueling like? If you're having TC troubles, that might be contributing to the KR you're seeing (especially in the "weird" places down low). You might be getting KR from the TC trying to lock.

onyx, add a PID in your scan to watch the converter lock ect. It will at least tell you what it is up to. May not be the tell all trick, but the nice thing is as Turbo mentions, the converter is cause for some kr in alot of our trucks...with the PID turned on for the converter you can associate if the kr and locking are happening together alot easier...I mean ALOT easier.

You are also pushing a 60e right? with 3K stall and 4.10's...coupled with the fact that beast weighs in over 5300lbs...never trust that 60e with FI. Weak link, I don't care what anybody says.

I don't tune enough to add my input on the trims...I'll just lurk on that...nevermind me. :)

PID? i dont know that acronym. i'll do some more logging with some WOT shifts. the converter usually locks around 40 mph.

its hard to do any right now thanks to the monsoon that is hovering over my house at the moment.

im going to look into everything pointed out.

Onyx, what's your fueling like? If you're having TC troubles, that might be contributing to the KR you're seeing (especially in the "weird" places down low). You might be getting KR from the TC trying to lock.


i only had 2 degrees of KR last night during logging at normal driving. the code was thrown during regular driving also which i thought was odd.

so i'll look through that log.

another easy way to tell if the converter locks set the tcc lock voltage offset to 98 its gonna cause it to feel like another shift when it locks I like it that way you will be able to feel it lock up for sure. I would pull your whole timing low and high tables by -5 then get your fueling right then go back and add timing. There is a reason you pull timing when messing with air/fuel. Its gonna take alot of time to get your lt's to fall into place the quickest method Ive found is disabling closed loop and using st's once done reenable lt's takes about 50 miles gamedawg turned me onto this method works well.

it threw the code again.

P0751

1-2 shift solenoid valve performance - no first or fourth gear.

im looking through my LTFTs and see a high of 18 and a low of 8 in the same cell.... ugh. thats not even WOT. i'll try to LTFT tune this weekend.

with my regular run yesterday, i had 2.6 KR out of nowhere.

RPM 2196
speed 46mph
TP 19%
ITA 43.0
KR 2.6
MAF 4.14 lb/min
MAP 49.00 kPa
ECT 174*F
IAT 138*F

STFT bank 1 -3.9%
STFT bank 2 2.3%
LTFT bank 1 9.4%
LTFT bank 2 12.5%

dynamic cylinder Air 0.22 g/cyl
Fuel trim cell 6

this knock just came out of nowhere. it was all normal driving.

im looking through my LTFTs and see a high of 18 and a low of 8 in the same cell.... ugh. thats not even WOT. i'll try to LTFT tune this weekend.


so i guess my truck is running lean still.... ugh. im trying to do some reading up on this. but im stuck at work and am unable to mess with it how i want to.

wow... this is like my own blog.

Dont the 99 and 2000 model trucks show a lot of false KR? I dont know if you are running a 02 pcm or not but I remember this being discussed a lot a while back..

i remember it being mentioned. it sucks because i have the tuning software for 00 and 05

I know bigtex had big trouble with his truck.. might want to check with him..

holy crap.

im watching my log... and ive noticed the KR spikes as i watch my tach go up. and it looks like i get a spike evrytime the tranny shifts. and the big spike is when the TC would be locking.

well now that i threw that code my TC doesnt lock anymore and im not getting the same spike anymore.

I had the same problem with the shift silenoids after replacing them both twice I got my software and realized it was because of the positive force motor current, I would set that table to stock if it isnt.

the kr with the tc locked is something we all suffer from once you get it down to no kr anywhere but when the tc locks the computer will learn it out if its 1-3
only worry about the lt's when under throttle not the ones you get when you let off from wot

what should i do about the TC not locking now?... what the heck is that about?

i have an LTFT tune ahead of me.

what should i do about the TC not locking now?... what the heck is that about?

i have an LTFT tune ahead of me.

lock the tc manually with hp (its under vcm tools click the button while driving) if it locks fine then the only thing that causes it to not lock is misfires and I dont see a cam in your sig so that shouldnt be the case.
Excessive kr might cause it not sure I would put the stock timing tables back in and tune your fuel first

lock the tc manually with hp (its under vcm tools click the button while driving) if it locks fine then the only thing that causes it to not lock is misfires and I dont see a cam in your sig so that shouldnt be the case.
Excessive kr might cause it not sure I would put the stock timing tables back in and tune your fuel first


it just started doing this about 2 days ago. it was locking fine before. it would start dropping RPM at about 40 mph.

Did you do your trans-go install at all? You might have of screwed up the TC valve part.

Would it ease his LTrim tuning at all if he were to unplug the knock sensors all together? That way he'll get no KR and get the fueling under control.

Also I wouldn't load a stock timing table with your setup. Not with our piss-water gas and this heat we have. You might see even more knock.

Did you do your trans-go install at all? You might have of screwed up the TC valve part.

Would it ease his LTrim tuning at all if he were to unplug the knock sensors all together? That way he'll get no KR and get the fueling under control.

Also I wouldn't load a stock timing table with your setup. Not with our piss-water gas and this heat we have. You might see even more knock.


BIG NO NO never disable the knock sensors I dont even like to desensitize them as much as alot of professionals do, but with the 99' sesors that was a bad year so the very last thing I would do is tune the sensitivity tables under global kr.

The stock tables are gonna have less timing in them than the tables he is using now they have 11 for wot, gas doesnt matter here. I dont think anything is wrong with his shift kit install it would have come up a long time ago.

Onyx: Have you edited any tables? Did you command the converter to lock with hpt-did it?

i havent done anything yet. havent messed with the transgo stuff either.

ive gotten as far as copying my high octane tables to the low octane table and thats it. next im going to flash the PCM with that and drive around for about an hour, and try to hit as many cells as possible.

im going off of a spread sheet i found on the HPT forum.

i havent done anything yet. havent messed with the transgo stuff either.

ive gotten as far as copying my high octane tables to the low octane table and thats it. next im going to flash the PCM with that and drive around for about an hour, and try to hit as many cells as possible.

im going off of a spread sheet i found on the HPT forum.

please please
read the 101 sticky in the tuning section and save yor engine some pitting and worn rings from detonation

please please
read the 101 sticky in the tuning section and save yor engine some pitting and worn rings from detonation


the tuning 101 word document is what im going off of.

adding timing is the last thing you want to do with the huge amount of kr you have the amount you have is alot especially with that table being averaged
we want to pull timing on both tables and get our fueling right, in order to get fueling right your gonna have to do alot of high rpm driving and "pulsing" to fill in all the cells. If you are using the timing tables you have now while tuning trims you are very likely to damage something from detonation especially when you run into lean conditions its a formula for disaster.

Put the stock timing tables in tune the fuel trims in SD with the ve table, there are several methods of doing this all work.

you can always add timing later some of the things in the stickie I agree with some dont make sense

1. put timing tables to stock
2. set maf fail frquency to 0, puts in SD
3. set closed loop enable to 285 in all cells, this disables long term trims makes things quicker and easier
4. Go drive around and looking at stft histogram display try and fill all cells up to 4000 rpms with an averaged value you should be able to get a value for each cell that wont change (another words we want the cursor to sit in that cell for a period of time until the value settles down and doesnt change) obviously we are looking at averaged values, not max, min or last value

this will require at least 15 minutes

5. take the filled histogram and cut and special paste-multiply by percentage on the ve table
6. smooth the ve table by hand you will notice trends where one side will want to go higher and the other will want to go lower so you will follow the trends with hand smoothing
I like to change the decimals to around 3 to get it nice and smooth.
7. Once short term trims are around +-5 reenable the long terms by resetting the closed loop enable table back to stock, you will be suprised by how good the long terms look go do some driving to update them. Repeat steps if neccesary.
8. Once LT trims are +-5 start turning up the timing

damn Im gonna make a document so I never have to type this again, timing tuning is a different story
this is the quickest and easiest method Ive found for tuning SD I hated waiting on long terms to update with this method avoid pe, spinning tires etc
thanks to gamedawg for pointing some of this out

this is good for a boosted motor?... putting in stock timing tables? where can i get ahold of some?

this is good for a boosted motor?... putting in stock timing tables? where can i get ahold of some?
go to http://www.horist.com/hptuner/

there is nothing wrong with decreasing timing its a safegueard until the fuel/air is tuned you wont have as much power but thats ok in the end you will have whole lot more, the only difference in tuning an FI motor is when entering boost it changes things as far as tuning that part I would go over to ls1tech

adding timing is the last thing you want to do with the huge amount of kr you have the amount you have is alot especially with that table being averaged
we want to pull timing on both tables and get our fueling right, in order to get fueling right your gonna have to do alot of high rpm driving and "pulsing" to fill in all the cells. If you are using the timing tables you have now while tuning trims you are very likely to damage something from detonation especially when you run into lean conditions its a formula for disaster.

Put the stock timing tables in tune the fuel trims in SD with the ve table, there are several methods of doing this all work.

you can always add timing later some of the things in the stickie I agree with some dont make sense

1. put timing tables to stock
2. set maf fail frquency to 0, puts in SD
3. set closed loop enable to 285 in all cells, this disables long term trims makes things quicker and easier
4. Go drive around and looking at stft histogram display try and fill all cells up to 4000 rpms with an averaged value you should be able to get a value for each cell that wont change (another words we want the cursor to sit in that cell for a period of time until the value settles down and doesnt change) obviously we are looking at averaged values, not max, min or last value



ok... just to confirm.

the timing tables are Edit>Engine>Spark Advance>Main Spark vs. Airflow vs. RPM Open Throttle

and which tables do i mess with to set closed loop enable?

1 the only tables you need to change right now are

the high and low octane put em to stock

2 fuel control-open&closed loop-closed loop enable-set to 295

3 engine diagnostics-general- maf sensor freq. fail =0

3. the go log your short term trims with the method above

one other thing reset your trims under tools-vcm control-fuel&spark-reset trims
do this after you edit the ve table

another easy way to tell if the converter locks set the tcc lock voltage offset to 98 its gonna cause it to feel like another shift when it locks I like it that way you will be able to feel it lock up for sure. I would pull your whole timing low and high tables by -5 then get your fueling right then go back and add timing. There is a reason you pull timing when messing with air/fuel. Its gonna take alot of time to get your lt's to fall into place the quickest method Ive found is disabling closed loop and using st's once done reenable lt's takes about 50 miles gamedawg turned me onto this method works well.

hey 02, I just figured onyx being a beginner in the tuning as myself would benefit from seeing the PID of the converter next to the PID of the kr. But your way is pretty obvious as well, just when you go back to watch your scan you still don't really know when the converter was locking.

FWW onyx...two things, I have the stock 2000 5.3 high octane table on LS1edit, not HPT....(I got the hpt for my 6.0 swap.) If you want, give me your email address and I'll screen print you a picture of the table..probably be easier to copy.

also for what is worth... on the hpt scanner software.... click on the third button just under "Scan and Preferences" it is the table display. Right click on something you don't want to see...likedynamic airflow and click delete. (there is a max on how many things you are allowed to watch. Then click on the box under the knock retard. The right click it...and click insert...then click the plus sign for transmission...then click TCC...then DOUBLE click TCC Mode. There you go.Goto file>save config as and name the preference something like converter test. And when ever you scan, just open that config. Make since?

It helped me, especially since I don't like the idea of killing kr sensors. Again, changing your converter settings will help alot as well. Don't get frustrated, tons of shit to learn in that tuning area.

hey 02, I just figured onyx being a beginner in the tuning as myself would benefit from seeing the PID of the converter next to the PID of the kr. But your way is pretty obvious as well, just when you go back to watch your scan you still don't really know when the converter was locking.

FWW onyx...two things, I have the stock 2000 5.3 high octane table on LS1edit, not HPT....(I got the hpt for my 6.0 swap.) If you want, give me your email address and I'll screen print you a picture of the table..probably be easier to copy.

also for what is worth... on the hpt scanner software.... click on the third button just under "Scan and Preferences" it is the table display. Right click on something you don't want to see...likedynamic airflow and click delete. (there is a max on how many things you are allowed to watch. Then click on the box under the knock retard. The right click it...and click insert...then click the plus sign for transmission...then click TCC...then DOUBLE click TCC Mode. There you go.Goto file>save config as and name the preference something like converter test. And when ever you scan, just open that config. Make since?

It helped me, especially since I don't like the idea of killing kr sensors. Again, changing your converter settings will help alot as well. Don't get frustrated, tons of shit to learn in that tuning area.


cool, thanks for the hook up.

bmlehman@cox.net

whats the outcome?

whats the outcome?


havent had time to mess with it unfortunately. been working too much. im still doing some more research.

onyx - by chance have you tried cleaning your top end or changing your LTFT boundaries to try and get your trims under control? Reason I am asking, I was having some trim issues and eventually some sporadic KR issues recently. Started reading up on some info about carbon build up and KR and their relation to one another. My truck only has 30k I really didn't think I would have alot of carbon build up which would cause the issues I was having, but I stopped by the dealer and a buddy of mine who is a mechanic there, gave me a couple of cans of the GM Top Engine Cleaner. I ran that through my truck, and I have to admit it worked pretty damn good. A couple days after running that through and logging I decided to change my LTFT MAP/RPM boundries to try align the FTC groups more efficiently. The stock settings were 33/55/77 MAP and 900/1400/2200 RPM, and I changed them to 45/65/85 MAP and 1K/2K/2.8K RPM. I was really never hitting the 33/900 cell, and my truck idled in between 40-50 MAP, so these changes definately worked for my setup. FWIW just trying to offer up something that might help out. The link below contains the Histograms of before and after changes.

Top End Cleaner Results (http://bigdogfrank.koehlerpro.com/docs/topcleaner.doc)

onyx - by chance have you tried cleaning your top end or changing your LTFT boundaries to try and get your trims under control? Reason I am asking, I was having some trim issues and eventually some sporadic KR issues recently. Started reading up on some info about carbon build up and KR and their relation to one another. My truck only has 30k I really didn't think I would have alot of carbon build up which would cause the issues I was having, but I stopped by the dealer and a buddy of mine who is a mechanic there, gave me a couple of cans of the GM Top Engine Cleaner. I ran that through my truck, and I have to admit it worked pretty damn good. A couple days after running that through and logging I decided to change my LTFT MAP/RPM boundries to try align the FTC groups more efficiently. The stock settings were 33/55/77 MAP and 900/1400/2200 RPM, and I changed them to 45/65/85 MAP and 1K/2K/2.8K RPM. I was really never hitting the 33/900 cell, and my truck idled in between 40-50 MAP, so these changes definately worked for my setup. FWIW just trying to offer up something that might help out. The link below contains the Histograms of before and after changes.

Top End Cleaner Results (http://bigdogfrank.koehlerpro.com/docs/topcleaner.doc)


thanks for the info. i was recommended to do the seafoam treatment. the top end cleaner is the same isnt it?

i have never used seafoam, but understand it does the same thing.