When I research everything about tuning I have found that most, inlcuding car guys like to say on average an advance of about 23* to 28* seems to work for them. Yeh yeh, I know each vehicle and atmoshpere is different. But i have a more simple question. The Main Advance table in my tune (using HPT) has the value of 9 in the cell for 4800RPM and 1.20 Cylinder Airmass. Under WOT conditions, is this right? I mean during scanning I read the car guys and some truck guys get 20-something. I get 9-something. HUH?

Also, at the top of that table when you let off the throttle it hits 3200RPM/.16 and the number is 49 to 52. Is this way too high? I can post my tables for view or I'd be more than happy to shoot my tune to someone for comment?

The low air values are fine.

The thing about getting xx* of timing -- it depends on compression, octane, boost, heat, IATs, etc. Your tune should be what works for you.

The method I used to get the most timing was to start off really safe and then try to walk the advance up 2* at a time until you see KR, and then back off 1-2*.

That's a problem as well, I have a random kr, I am nailing it down to particular areas, but I just can't imagine 9 degrees of timing being anywhere right for WOT. Without the alcohol my IAT is 150ish, 180 ECT, 7.8 boost w/radix on 6.0, 93 octane, compression is sorta unknown because I kept my 5.3 stage heads when I went with the 6.0. Just put 6.0 head gaskets on. But FWW it is stock 6.0 internals besides rod bolts and 2.02/1.67 heads.

I know guys who run 8* (of course the're running 28psi of boost :))

I can tell you that I ran 11* of timing with no intercooler at 7psi (meth only 10psi) with no KR on a 10:1 6.0L.

AFAIK, the 5.3 heads are 62cc which means your CR might be high. Did you do flat tops or dished pistons (i.e. LQ9 or LQ4 6.0?). Either way, you want to figure out your compression as I think its probably near 10:1 (which isn't a bad thing, just means your timing will be lower than others).

When I research everything about tuning I have found that most, inlcuding car guys like to say on average an advance of about 23* to 28* seems to work for them. Yeh yeh, I know each vehicle and atmoshpere is different. But i have a more simple question. The Main Advance table in my tune (using HPT) has the value of 9 in the cell for 4800RPM and 1.20 Cylinder Airmass. Under WOT conditions, is this right? I mean during scanning I read the car guys and some truck guys get 20-something. I get 9-something. HUH?

Also, at the top of that table when you let off the throttle it hits 3200RPM/.16 and the number is 49 to 52. Is this way too high? I can post my tables for view or I'd be more than happy to shoot my tune to someone for comment?

The higher the airmass number the more load the engine is under. I have never seen 1.2 the most I get to is around .9 at wot in first, then shifting into second itll drop to around .8x and climb to around .9x. On a boosted app this might be different have you actually seen any of the cells in that range filled with data on your logs, I would doubt you would ever see it.

The 49 and 52 up top is fine the only time you will see them is when youve let off the throttle from wide open there will be plenty of fueling for those cells ( assuming pe fueling is good) look at your afr youll see what I mean

I would look at your logs you want the timing to gradually decrease till you reach wot then stay the same at a constant load. If you notice the timing travels at an angle starting in the upper left of the table and traveling down to the right.

Ive found that the timing and particularly the ve, pe tables play togethor. If you have the ve table finely tuned along with pe you will be able to run alot more timing and the transmission shifting will be smoother.

the key to good timing tables is first tuning everything else especially the VE in SD and PE then moving to timing shouldnt see any big jumps in timing either when accelerating engines are linear in everything they do.

If my memory serves me correctly, I purchased the flat tops. It's a 2002 6.0 that I bought from a guy on here who had purchased it online from a speed shop (just never built).

My tune(s) were initially and for the most part setup by Allen (Nelson). I am just now getting around to messing with learning to tune and the "twist the distributor" is obviously not an option. hehehehe Yeh I am guessing...literally the ratio is more like 10:1 or maybe 10.5:1. You know I forgot, they were milled .010 as well. SO it might be a little higher than I imagine.

As far as 02sierraz71 5.3 talking about load and gms/cyl, I can get 1.2 with 85% TPS, definitely at 100%. I was discussing with a mechanic, whom is a good friend and does alot of the big jobs on my truck and he races monster trucks, about the angle from the left top corner to the botttom right...yep makes since. I was just curious about the HUGE differences in that degree from no throttle and full throttle. You would think strivng for the 28* would be want you want. But as you guys are saying the mods and boost make for a difference...is there a known formula or guide for figuring spectulative degrees at specific load points for boosted vehicles.

I changed just the advance today( I upped the area in WOT .8x to 1.2 by 2-3 degrees) after I posted the first time. It definitely feels stronger, a little sloppy on recovery sometimes, my WIDEBAND isn't hooked up yet (so busy), but I got KR twice, one was at 36% TPS constant and then a little drop in TPS, but it was big kr...8*.

I also so kr one time at WOT, but only once. and it was 1.4*. Must note that I sped up my kr recovery as I could do a better job of telling fake kr from possible real kr. Definitely alot stronger in the mid range, maybe pull some of that timing up in the higher areas. But you (Turbobereserker) were saying you ran 11* on a non-intercooled, 6.0 with 10:1. Your truck now, (STS isn't intercooled is it? turbo is in air path right?) ? or a past truck.

I just don't know about the learning curve of SD tuning. I don't have time(or timing LOL), I am very interested in learning all the ins and out, but for now, I just want my truck to pull hard thorugh the whole spectrum. It seems to not have much at top and done low at a roll. It will launch fantastic and pull fairly hard thorugh all gears, but if you are rolling, it feels like nothing...a loud deep mean 4 cylinder is what it feels like.

How about Torque Management, I knwo where all the tables, but what I should do about torque values and which tables to zero out for timing pulls?

Thanks for your help guys, complicated stuff.

The advance table has been changed a little as I said

pics of tables (http://www.deweygibson.com/Silverado%20Scan%20Pics.htm)

[edit] just looked at tables timing looks nice and smooth, im assuming the top one is the ve table it looks similar to mine except mine climbs quicker
what do your trims look like?

[edit] just looked at tables timing looks nice and smooth, im assuming the top one is the ve table it looks similar to mine except mine climbs quicker
what do your trims look like?

Look okay. 0 to -5 sometimes you'll see positive numbers.

It seems like your timing in the part throttle areas is WAY higher than mine
(+5 or so) but my timing is quite a bit higher in most WOT cells

Hey Berserker, who does your tuning? I'm in Orlando also, I've seen you truck at Vinci, nice ride!...anyway it seems that vinci can only put there "tuner" on not a custom tune...it may be because I have 4wd, but I dunno...anyway my radix should be here next week and I am looking for a custom tune after it is installed.
BTW I used your AeroComp reference...they worked out great! I put up 264hp, but at 10.5 afr.
Thanks,
Damon

Look okay. 0 to -5 sometimes you'll see positive numbers.
no need to get snoby just asking questions
the reason I did was because you said your getting random kr thats from inconsistent fueling or too much timing and since we've eliminated the fueling part I would pull timing. The only other thing I can think of is injectors over duty cycle. Where does the random kr appear? In the pics posted it doesnt show any.

As far as pulling timing I have found that the amount of kr isnt directly proportional to the amount of actual knock so If I see 3-4 degrees I pull about 2 degrees and that gets rid of it. I also like to run a different high and low table the high being where I know Im just gonna start seeing kr the low about 3-4 degrees below where I see kr. This has worked well for me and gives some leway but yet the engine will always try and move up just enough to where I can run max timing. With this setup if I do see kr its .5 or less and with a road trip its learned it out.

no need to get snoby just asking questions
the reason I did was because you said your getting random kr thats from inconsistent fueling or too much timing and since we've eliminated the fueling part I would pull timing. The only other thing I can think of is injectors over duty cycle. Where does the random kr appear? In the pics posted it doesnt show any.

As far as pulling timing I have found that the amount of kr isnt directly proportional to the amount of actual knock so If I see 3-4 degrees I pull about 2 degrees and that gets rid of it. I also like to run a different high and low table the high being where I know Im just gonna start seeing kr the low about 3-4 degrees below where I see kr. This has worked well for me and gives some leway but yet the engine will always try and move up just enough to where I can run max timing. With this setup if I do see kr its .5 or less and with a road trip its learned it out.

Whoa dude, I wasn't getting snobby, just a quick answer. I am big time sorry if I showed any attitude. FAAAAAR from how I want to portray myself. I am very thankful of your input, turbo's, blownchevy, greentahoe, parish, everbody's, hell you guys have helped me out many times in the past (lurking ofcourse under most circumstances)

I didn't get a chance to copy any pics of the kr on Friday, between busy and my shitty memory, you pick.hehehe. But it usually in the 2100 to 3100 rpm range and about 25 to 35% TPS. Usually I am actually cruising and it comes up...you know constant TPS and all of a sudden...kr. ANywhere from a quick burst of .4 to 4* or even ever now and again and huge burst of 8*. I have my recovery rate set up so most (99.9%) times it goes away, but with the huge burst of kr it last like 2 to 4 seconds. again keeping in mind...not WOT, just somewhere around midrange. Which might with what greentahoe says, be a problem. I think I'll scale down part throttle timing a little.

I defintely know what you mean by kr timing isn't directly cooresponding to the amount of timing that needs to be pulled, it's just a value in a table that is used under that condition of sensitivity. When you say high and low table you do mean you run your high octane table as close to kr as you can get and then the low octane is -3 or -4 compared to the high octane table. I like that idea. Learning might prove to be interesting. Good concept for sure. Hmmm.

And I just noticed why you thought I was get snobby....LOL I meant "LookS Okay." Sorry about.

dewey

Whoa dude, I wasn't getting snobby, just a quick answer. I am big time sorry if I showed any attitude. FAAAAAR from how I want to portray myself. I am very thankful of your input, turbo's, blownchevy, greentahoe, parish, everbody's, hell you guys have helped me out many times in the past (lurking ofcourse under most circumstances)

I didn't get a chance to copy any pics of the kr on Friday, between busy and my shitty memory, you pick.hehehe. But it usually in the 2100 to 3100 rpm range and about 25 to 35% TPS. Usually I am actually cruising and it comes up...you know constant TPS and all of a sudden...kr. ANywhere from a quick burst of .4 to 4* or even ever now and again and huge burst of 8*. I have my recovery rate set up so most (99.9%) times it goes away, but with the huge burst of kr it last like 2 to 4 seconds. again keeping in mind...not WOT, just somewhere around midrange. Which might with what greentahoe says, be a problem. I think I'll scale down part throttle timing a little.

I defintely know what you mean by kr timing isn't directly cooresponding to the amount of timing that needs to be pulled, it's just a value in a table that is used under that condition of sensitivity. When you say high and low table you do mean you run your high octane table as close to kr as you can get and then the low octane is -3 or -4 compared to the high octane table. I like that idea. Learning might prove to be interesting. Good concept for sure. Hmmm.

And I just noticed why you thought I was get snobby....LOL I meant "LookS Okay." Sorry about.

dewey


no problem maybe I was reading too much into it I wrote that after a night of drinking

As far as setting the high table I try and set it right at the threshold where I know I will see 1-3 degrees kr, then bump down the low octane accordingly it takes time but it has worked well for me, I havent found anyone else who does this its just something I stumbled across.

I used to have a problem with that low rpm kr also I adjusted the kr sensor level
0 400 800 1200 1600 2000 2400 2800 3.2k
11 11 11 11 11 11 11 10 7 8 9 9
11 11 11 11 11 11 11 10 8 8 8 8
11 11 11 11 11 11 11 10 8 8 8 8
11 11 11 11 11 11 11 10 7 8 8 7
11 11 11 11 11 11 11 10 7 8 8 8
11 11 11 11 11 11 11 10 7 8 8 8
11 11 11 11 11 11 11 10 9 9 9 8
11 11 11 11 11 11 11 10 7 8 8 7

lots of noise with cams and valves, this helped but the timing thing has helped the most becuase I would only get it when the converter locks in 4th in low rpms range and it allowed me to vary the timing. I also changed the iat and max tq timing tables they are factored as well

Whoa dude, I wasn't getting snobby, just a quick answer. I am big time sorry if I showed any attitude. FAAAAAR from how I want to portray myself. I am very thankful of your input, turbo's, blownchevy, greentahoe, parish, everbody's, hell you guys have helped me out many times in the past (lurking ofcourse under most circumstances)

I didn't get a chance to copy any pics of the kr on Friday, between busy and my shitty memory, you pick.hehehe. But it usually in the 2100 to 3100 rpm range and about 25 to 35% TPS. Usually I am actually cruising and it comes up...you know constant TPS and all of a sudden...kr. ANywhere from a quick burst of .4 to 4* or even ever now and again and huge burst of 8*. I have my recovery rate set up so most (99.9%) times it goes away, but with the huge burst of kr it last like 2 to 4 seconds. again keeping in mind...not WOT, just somewhere around midrange. Which might with what greentahoe says, be a problem. I think I'll scale down part throttle timing a little.

I defintely know what you mean by kr timing isn't directly cooresponding to the amount of timing that needs to be pulled, it's just a value in a table that is used under that condition of sensitivity. When you say high and low table you do mean you run your high octane table as close to kr as you can get and then the low octane is -3 or -4 compared to the high octane table. I like that idea. Learning might prove to be interesting. Good concept for sure. Hmmm.

And I just noticed why you thought I was get snobby....LOL I meant "LookS Okay." Sorry about.

dewey
Wow, I feel priviledged to be included in such a group!! :)
Ive dealt with the same random KR at 2100 to 3100 and 25-35%TPS, but I simply adjusted the VE table just slightly and it got rid of it. Im not too sure if the timing has much to do with it as I was comapring your tune to mine preintercooler and spraying a bunch of meth. If your VE table looks good and the KR is random than I wouldnt go crazy with it.
I think if you are spraying meth and only running 8 or so pounds of boost, you should be able to run quite a bit more than 9* up top. Add a few at a time at back it down a tad when you see KR.

Wow, I feel priviledged to be included in such a group!! :)
Ive dealt with the same random KR at 2100 to 3100 and 25-35%TPS, but I simply adjusted the VE table just slightly and it got rid of it. Im not too sure if the timing has much to do with it as I was comapring your tune to mine preintercooler and spraying a bunch of meth. If your VE table looks good and the KR is random than I wouldnt go crazy with it.
I think if you are spraying meth and only running 8 or so pounds of boost, you should be able to run quite a bit more than 9* up top. Add a few at a time at back it down a tad when you see KR.

I am sure timing has nothing to do with it due to meth and I have had that fuel up to 110 octane with same results. I am just not to confident yet with messing with the VE...I feel it's the best way. I really like the idea of the compensating between the high and low table...for the purpose of finding what your right spot is. Doesn't the "learn" that happens concerning the ECM happen between these timing tables and the "cell" learning happens on the VE table?

green what kind of scaling would you suggest I do in those areas? using my ve table up above in the link. The only other problem I have with running more than 9 to 11 at top is I don't know what my compression is any more using the 5.3 stg3 heads that have been milled .010.

A bigger cam will want more timing in the part throttle area than a smaller cam vehicle.


WOT advance still seems really low up top. I assume you're running the 42# injectors. What's your fuel pressure? It may be that you're trying to tune out KR caused by poor fueling, or the false KR, or the dreaded down shift / tranny induced KR.

A bigger cam will want more timing in the part throttle area than a smaller cam vehicle.


WOT advance still seems really low up top. I assume you're running the 42# injectors. What's your fuel pressure? It may be that you're trying to tune out KR caused by poor fueling, or the false KR, or the dreaded down shift / tranny induced KR.

the latter....dreaded converter lock. Give any amount of gas (except WOT) with that converter locked and about 60 to 75% of the time I get the kr. Fuel pressure is between 55 and 62. For some reason my digital is crazy sometimes, but I have done mechanical a hundred times and it reads 60 at idle and 56 at WOT and then creeps to 59. The radix is 42# injected.

You think my part throttle timing looks a little low considering the bigger cam? I am gonna creep the top timing up at 2 degree increments and see what I get.

i am tuning out sporadic kr in mine and i have a slightly lower pt base timing matrix in a na truck.

Base Spark Matrix (http://bigdogfrank.koehlerpro.com/images/basespark.gif)

i am tuning out sporadic kr in mine and i have a slightly lower pt base timing matrix in a na truck.

Base Spark Matrix (http://bigdogfrank.koehlerpro.com/images/basespark.gif)

Interesting....no knock up top I take it. My setup is definitely different...but interesting nevertheless.

the latter....dreaded converter lock. Give any amount of gas (except WOT) with that converter locked and about 60 to 75% of the time I get the kr. Fuel pressure is between 55 and 62. For some reason my digital is crazy sometimes, but I have done mechanical a hundred times and it reads 60 at idle and 56 at WOT and then creeps to 59. The radix is 42# injected.

You think my part throttle timing looks a little low considering the bigger cam? I am gonna creep the top timing up at 2 degree increments and see what I get.


A bunch of the SSS guys (myself included) combat this KR by bumping up the lockup settings by 5-7mph. That seems to work magic.

Also, this is not real KR. It is noise from the tranny tripping the sensors, so some people will just disable the KR, but I'd rather have the KR protection there in case you do hit a fuel issue or heat or whatever.

A bunch of the SSS guys (myself included) combat this KR by bumping up the lockup settings by 5-7mph. That seems to work magic.

Also, this is not real KR. It is noise from the tranny tripping the sensors, so some people will just disable the KR, but I'd rather have the KR protection there in case you do hit a fuel issue or heat or whatever.

no turning off kr sensors here. Not worth it, waaaaaaaaaay too much money into it. LOL I'd rather deal with false knock than unprotected fun. Won't be to much fun once ya find out your dick is in the dirt. lol

I am finding good results with changing the lockup settings. The freaky thing is it is a HUGE burst of knock in the weirdest place at times....one thing for sure, the MAP maxes out when it happens. I'll be cruising at 30%TPS/MAF 21.57lb-min/2880RPM/ and then all of a sudden the MAP goes to 103 and I get 8*kr, spiking in and out for about 2 seconds and then go away. Weird. I don't care so much cuz as far as performance goes, I am not looking for it....just cruising...but would love to know the cause.

no turning off kr sensors here. Not worth it, waaaaaaaaaay too much money into it. LOL I'd rather deal with false knock than unprotected fun. Won't be to much fun once ya find out your dick is in the dirt. lol

I am finding good results with changing the lockup settings. The freaky thing is it is a HUGE burst of knock in the weirdest place at times....one thing for sure, the MAP maxes out when it happens. I'll be cruising at 30%TPS/MAF 21.57lb-min/2880RPM/ and then all of a sudden the MAP goes to 103 and I get 8*kr, spiking in and out for about 2 seconds and then go away. Weird. I don't care so much cuz as far as performance goes, I am not looking for it....just cruising...but would love to know the cause.


I have the exact same thing. Ive noticed that it occurs on Tip in or just when the MAP reaches max. Im waiting for EFIlive to adjust my tables at part throttle.

:chug:

im looking at a tune i did where my KR jumps from 1.3 to 7.4

i was cruising at 2559 rpms, MAP 12.62, MAF 9.69, 37% TPS, Timing 27.5%

then the spike happens in the next frame at

2543 rpms, MAP 12.62, MAF 9.47, 37% TPS, Timing 20.5%

wtf?

holy crap.

im watching my log... and ive noticed the KR spikes as i watch my tach go up. and it looks like i get a spike evrytime the tranny shifts. and the big spike is when the TC would be locking.

well now that i threw that code my TC doesnt lock anymore and im not getting the same spike anymore.